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Post by shadow on May 5, 2008 10:15:08 GMT -5
Hello, all -
Thank you first for this great message board...it's great to be able to communicate with those who "know"...
A quick introduction: My adopted brother attacked my parents while they slept, a decade ago. My dad was killed, and my mom left for dead. She has survived, and mostly healed from the physical wounds.
I have done alot of work to try to manage this, and heal, too. But one thing that has always been unsettling is that there's a certain aspect about my dad's death that has never seemed "real"; I saw my mom in the hospital, which was real. But I did not see my dad's body, the house, etc. We had a memorial service a month later for him, but he was creamated, so there was no body. My mom had his ashes in her closet for 5 years, and we eventually put them in the woods, but it was "fast and furious" as my mom was nervous (among other things) and felt "surreal".
I have images of my dad living, and these intense images of what "must" have happened in his death, but they don't fit.
I now have the opportunity to view the crime scene photos. They are being sent to my therapist, who is very gifted, and willing to do this process with me.
I know there is "no turning back", once I see these images, yet, I am drawn to make this more real.
Do any of you have experience with this? THoughts?
Thanks! Shadow
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Post by beemo on May 5, 2008 11:49:45 GMT -5
Wow. This is scary territory. I couldn't attend my Dad's trial because I was a witness, so I didn't see the crime scene photos. I could probably ask to see them now, but I don't want to. I used to watch a lot of true crime shows, and am very good at visualization, so I'm pretty sure I already know. That being said, I also got to view my Dad's body before it was creamated. The funeral home did a very good job of hiding the sutures on his neck (although they did still make us sign a release before we saw him).
Years ago when my coworker's son died in a car accident, she had the opportunity to see his body. Her husband told her not to, because the same thing happened to him with one of his family members. He did decide to see the body, and the image haunted him afterwards. Do you want that image stuck in your head? Is that the last thing you want to remember about your dad?
Only you can make this decision, but I guess I would advise against it. On the other hand, maybe there is a photo that isn't too terribly graphic (probably not possible though) that your therapist could let you see, that would satisfy your need to know.
Good luck with your decision. I'm sorry you even have to be in this position. I'm very sorry about your dad and hope your mom is doing okay.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on May 6, 2008 14:00:14 GMT -5
Dear shadow, welcome to the board. I'm very sorry about your Dad. I lost my Dad to murder, too. Part of me didn't believe he was dead until his funeral. As far as crime scene pictures went, my family had a chance to look at them (if we wanted) when we went to court for a medical malpractice case. I chose not to. 1 reason why is my psychologist told me that seeing those images would slow down my recovery and the images would never leave my mind. I also didn't want to see pictures of Dad after he'd been attacked. I'm glad your therapist is going to help you with this. I think this is something that's up to each MVS, this decision. I hope you come to the right decision for YOU. Again, welcome to the board and take care.
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Post by taterfay on May 8, 2008 12:18:47 GMT -5
Hi shadow:'
I am sorry for everything you are having to go through, and for the loss of your dad. Knowing myself and how much images affect me, I'd probably choose NOT to look at these photos. I saw my sister lying in a coma on a hospital bed (she was beaten to brain death by her boyfriend, but was pregnant and so we had to keep her on life support for the baby's sake..it's a complicated story), but it was hard seeing her that way, and I def. don't want to see the photos that the police took at the scene of the crime, cuz I know she looked much worse right after the beating then when I saw her in the hospital 5 days later. Ultimately, this is your decision, but I DO think that once you see those photos you will never be able to get them out of your mind. It'd probably be better to only have images of your dad in your head from when he was still alive. Take care! Hugs, Stacey
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Post by drewsmom595 on May 8, 2008 19:24:10 GMT -5
Hi Shadow:
My mentally ill brother shot and killed my Dad, and I wasn't able to attend the trial because I was a witness, so I didn't see any crime scene photos.
I did have the opportunity to go to the courthouse and look at the trial transcripts, and I choose not to see the photos which were in one of the exhibits. I did see a brief glance of one of them when the defense attorney was questioning me in his office, and all I could see was my dad's arm, and I remember freezing. Although I only saw his arm, it haunts me because I knew it was a photograph of him as he was lying in a pool of blood.
At this time, I simply could not view the crime scene photos. I did see him in the coffin, and I was very glad that he looked relatively normal. A relative took photos of him in the coffin, and I can't bring myself to look at them.
Perhaps your therapist can find a photo that isn't too disturbing for you to "try out". Good luck and please let us know how it goes.
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Post by Snowleopard on May 9, 2008 2:36:24 GMT -5
I would advice caution, from two angles.
First of all, for me, seeing actual pictures, videos (ie, underwater cameras for recovery) of the dead is something I do, it does not bother me too much. But I do recall when my prof (ex homicide detective) for my serial murder class showed actual pictures to the class. People were warned ahead of time, it was an optional class, and people could walk out at any time .... and a few did. I think to those unfamiliar with seeing the dead, it is not an easy thing to do.
The second aspect is more figurative but I think it applies. In Prince Valiant, Arn is courting some Norweigan brunette. During a fun ride, the slope she and her horse is on collaspes and she vanishes to her death. When the Viking warriors bring back her body, Arn goes to uncover her and one of the Vikings stops him. "Don't, Son; remember her always as she was, happy, laughing, do not remember her as she is now."
As you said, if you do, there is no going back. Think about which memories you want to have.
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Post by acavana on May 10, 2008 10:41:50 GMT -5
I was a witness at Michelle's murderers trial, however the judge let me in to represent the family as we were all witnesses. I saw the pictures and the autopsy. It was awful, but not traumatic for me. Some of my imagination was worse than what was there, and some of the pictures were worse than we thought. We had to clean out the apartment that Michelle was killed in and so the pictures put the pieces together for what I saw there. It made me accept more that she really was gone and truely see that we couldn't have saved her. It is such a personal decision.
If you decide to view them I would recommend that you have your therapist put them in the order of how graphic they are (from least to most). That way if it gets to a point that you have seen enough, you can just stop. If you would like, also have her put descriptions on cards that come up before the picture, so you have the choice of skipping some that way. You may want a friend with you that hasn't seen them also so that you have someone to talk to that knows exactly what you have seen.
I will say one thing the picture that bothered me the most wasn't graphic. It showed Michelles feet. They had no socks on, nobody could understand why because she always had socks, and had beautiful boots. Anyway, her feet were flexed and that bothers me still, even though people tell me that that is a reflex that just happens. No matter what, remember that it is only their body not their soul, they were no longer in that body at the point that you are seeing them in the pictures. After the trial, I carried my favorite picture of Michelle with me. If and when any memories or flashes of the pictures came, no matter where I was, I would take a deep breath and pull out that picture. Now I just close my eyes and that beautiful picture is in my head.
I would not change the fact that I decided to look, it made me feel like Michelle didn't go through it alone in some wierd way. That I shared in the knowlege of what happened. That I knew what he did that day, not his story.
Please don't hesitate if you have any questions.
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Post by shadow on May 10, 2008 18:41:00 GMT -5
Thank you to all who have replied thus far, and to all who will continue to. Your experiences and thoughts are helpful.
Most sincerely, Shadow
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Post by anakahashi008 on May 23, 2008 19:36:53 GMT -5
Hi Shadow-
I must say you are brave for your contemplation but I can see where you may be coming from. I'm the type that wants the truth no matter what and I think I'd be much like you in this circumstance, although I suppose the nature of the murder would effect my choice. I agree that you cannot undo the image implantation but for some it fades a bit.
After my mother passed (of cancer) I'd left the room during her death for religious reasons and returned when I was certain she had passed. I was angered that no one had covered her and she lay in an indignant death position... I suffered PTS episodes where my consciousness would take me there to the image of her face for just a split second for the next year or so... Over time they stopped and the image is less vivid even when I try to think of it. It was scary looking at her and how much I look like she did... It was almost like seeing into my own death but that may have been easier to deal with I suppose. My support to you and I have faith that you will choose what you feel is best for you and not many can know you better than you do yourself.
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Post by reelee71 on May 28, 2008 23:09:33 GMT -5
SHADOW-
I'M DEALING WITH THE SAME THING. I HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT VIEWING THE CRIME SCENE PHOTOS OF MY MOTHER AND GRANDPARENTS. I WAS THERE WHEN MY MOTHER WAS SHOT, BUT I ESCAPED. MY MOTHER HAD HAD ASKED ME LONG BEFORE THAT WHEN SOMETHING HAPPENED TO HER NOT HAVE A OPEN CASKET. I DID WHAT SHE HAD ASKED AND I NEVER VIEWED HER. MY UNCLES HAD DECIDED TO HAVE OPEN CASKETS FOR MY GRANDPARENTS AND I DID GET TO SEE THEM. STILL THOUGH I HAVE THIS SOMETHING INSIDE ME THAT DOES AND DOESN'T WANT TO SEE THE PHOTOS OF MY MOMMA. I KNOW THAT ONCE I SEE THEM THOSE IMAGES WILL ALWAYS BE THERE, YET I FEEL THAT MAYBE IF I DO LOOK AT THEM IT MAY GIVE ME SOME KIND OF CLOSURE. REALLY THOUGH CAN YOU EVER GET CLOSURE FROM SOMETHING LIKE THIS. SO DON'T FEEL ALONE I'M HAVING THE SAME STRUGGLES. GOD BLESS-REELEE71
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Post by gingerrussell on May 29, 2008 19:01:17 GMT -5
Shadow, I truly understand your dilemma. My brother was murdered 22 years ago- very violently. No one in the family identified him, so for years I pretended it wasn't him. After 3 years I went to the police and requested to see the crime scene photos. I was prepared (as well as I could be) for his injuries, however the police accidentally gave me the autopsy photos too. I have learned to deal with what I saw, but please be aware of the risks. There are somethings you just can't un-see. I can't say I wish I would have never seen what I did, however, I have been forever changed by it. For me, I had to see my brother. I had to have proof that he was never coming back. But what ever the reason, may you have the courage to do what you must, and the strength to live with it. You're in my prayers.
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Post by shadow on May 29, 2008 20:11:33 GMT -5
Well, the photos arrived at my therapist's office a few weeks ago, and we set tomorrow as the date to view them.
Even having the photos in town brought a new reality to this. It feels like I've gone through every possible picture in my mind, given the details that I know, to try to prepare for the worst.
Though the fear and panic have been intense at times, there has been also some relief inside, that I have a say in viewing the photos, when we view them, and how fast we view them. It gives a sense of control over the murder, instead of it controlling me, as it has.
I thank those that have shared similar experiences and thoughts about needing to "know" and "see" and to "believe" what has happened. It is indeed a personal dilemma for all of us. I carry your your kinship and your support with me tomorrow, when this all unfolds.
Thank you...I hope to update when the dust settles a bit.
-Shadow
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Post by acavana on May 30, 2008 20:39:53 GMT -5
Shadow, my thoughts and prayers have been and still are with you. I hope that today brought you some type of positivity. May you have strength through this time, and I hope that you update soon.
Ginger, thank you for sharing also. It's nice to hear from somebody else who has been there.
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Post by shadow on Jun 11, 2008 9:37:33 GMT -5
It's been a bit of a roller-coaster of a couple weeks, but I wanted to report back on my experience thus far, after viewing most of the photographs.
First, thank you all for your words and support - it helped knowing others have been through the experience of viewing the crime scene photos (or a body), and that it has been beneficial in some way.
For anyone considering this process, please know it is a highly individual process with unpredictable experiences, emotions, and outcomes. It's also hard not to have expectations going in, as to what you will gain or experience from this. I have the good fortune of working with a very gifted therapist throughout the process, and I really recommend going through it with a trained professional of some sort, preferably whom you are comfortable with. It is alot to process.
I viewed the photos over three different hour sessions. The photos had been arranged before they arrived in order of least to most graphic. I had been warned by the Victims Assistant that as crime scene photos go, these were bad.
There were alot of photos of just random rooms in the house, which helped me to see that the violence was not as widespread as I initially thought. The crime scene itself (bedroom and bath, mostly) was harder to look at, but still pretty managable, compared to what I had envisioned. Not to undermine the powerfulness of seeing "actual" versus "imagined". This is still very tough.
I was warned as the first photo came up with my dad in it. I held it on my lap, first, and let my eyes see it for a split second. That's all I needed. I knew. It was real. More real than this has been in eleven years.
That was one of my goals. The other, was to cry, as I haven't been able to. But, it didn't happen that day (too much fear and overwhelm, and a variety of other factors). Instead, I started shaking, quite intensely at times. My therapist invited this - which was new for me - to have intense emotions be acceptable (they weren't, in my experience). He also said the shaking would come and go, which it has. But this opened the door to my later being able to cry, as I knew that the shaking could stop, so the crying could stop, too.
The processing that took place for me in the hours and days after that first glimpse of my dad was profound, but I still felt the pull to go back and look, for a longer time. One thing that I have struggled with since this happened is a series of graphic images of what happened - they go non-stop, and I can't stay on one for more than a split-second.
When I went back and looked at the photo on another day, for a longer time, it was at first shocking how different it seemed from what I got in the initial split-second. It was very, very tough. But I lingered on it for several minutes.
Again, there have been some very profound and personal reactions from this, some of which I am still processing. What I can say, is that the image has brought not only reality, but a sense of stillness - in, that the violence STOPPED at some point. It is in itself a horrible image, which has brought a range of emotional reaction, but it is one image that settles a series of other more racing and maybe more graphic ones. This is different. I don't know if it is permanent, but we'll see.
In the hours after viewing the photo, going back into the image in my mind, I was able to see and feel in a powerful way, the release of my father (and of me) from that body on the bed. That was not where I needed to keep him. I could let go of him being trapped in that body, and of the feelings I have held onto. This has been profound.
Days after viewing the photo, and after lots of processing, I found myself sobbing for the first time since this happened. I sobbed for an hour and a half. Finally being able to release the sorrow that was buried under so much else - horror, disbelief, overwhelm, and even anger. I sobbed not only for my father, but also for myself, and all the times I would've liked to have been able to have cried when this first happened, and I couldn't (for a gamut of reasons, then).
The last few days have been alternating between shut-down, fear, and grief. Fear for what's next (since it has been a rollercoaster), and grief occurring sometimes as just a nagging pain, and other times (usually inconveniently) more intense. It's the periods of shut-down, that are hardest to take, in some ways. Makes me feel so disconnected and inhuman. Probably my brain needing a rest.
I have shared the process with four close friends, who have been very supportive throughout this process. This has been different than when this all first happened - I just wanted everything to be normal and stop hurting. I thought I was burdening my friends, so I didn't talk about my feelings. They left. This is different, and helpful to have a second chance. I, like many others who have been through a murder, have had to re-examine so many aspects of my life. I have different types of people in my life now, and it is easier to share my life with them.
There are two photos left to view (I'm told they are just different angles of my dad). I don't know if I will view them, or not. I don't have the pull anymore. I don't want more images than the one that is sitting so still right now. But I also don't want to have to come back into this place in the future because I still wonder what else I might've seen.
For now, I have seen what I need to. It has been intense. But I now know in my heart now that it is real. And I can begin to embrace and release the long pent-up sorrow that accompanies that real.
I may post again after this settles some more. Again, thank you all for sharing your experiences, and your support...my heart goes out to each of you, for what you have endured so far, and for whatever is to come.
Sincerely, Shadow
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Post by holdingittogether on Jun 11, 2008 10:13:35 GMT -5
Shadow -
Your post sounds like your experience in this was good for you. I have kept up with the post as we may face the same choice at some point. Your demeanor sounds so different in this post than it has in the posts leading up to viewing the photos. It almost seems like you have found a form of peace you can accept and hold onto through the sorrow and pain. I know you say you feel unsettled some and like it's been a roller coaster but as an outsider - your writing seems less tense. I hope you truly feel this way or are on your way to feeling this way.
Your openness through this process has been a blessing to me. There are times I wonder if I can get through some of the things my family faces but you have given me hope in my own strength by sharing yours.
Thanks!!!
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Post by shadow on Jun 11, 2008 10:46:28 GMT -5
Dear "Holdingittogether" -
Your post brought me to tears...it really did. It has been such a powerful experience, to embrace the murder itself, and my feelings. It was amazing to hear that acknowledgement of the many shifts going on even being evident here...
Thank you for that, and please let me know if I can be of any help if you do go through this process.
BTW - tears are a very GOOD thing for me right now!
-Shadow
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jun 11, 2008 18:12:03 GMT -5
HI Shadow:
I'm so glad that you posted an update about your experience in viewing the crime scene photos. The courage and strength that you possess is inspiring to me. I'm glad that you found the experience so cathartic and that it brought you the closure and outcome that you desired.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Jun 12, 2008 10:09:18 GMT -5
Shadow, I truly understand your dilemma. My brother was murdered 22 years ago- very violently. No one in the family identified him, so for years I pretended it wasn't him. After 3 years I went to the police and requested to see the crime scene photos. I was prepared (as well as I could be) for his injuries, however the police accidentally gave me the autopsy photos too. I have learned to deal with what I saw, but please be aware of the risks. There are somethings you just can't un-see. I can't say I wish I would have never seen what I did, however, I have been forever changed by it. For me, I had to see my brother. I had to have proof that he was never coming back. But what ever the reason, may you have the courage to do what you must, and the strength to live with it. You're in my prayers. Dear gingerrussell, I'm very sorry about your Brother. I'm glad you found this board and hope you find some comfort here. If you don't mind my asking, what happened to the perpetrator in your case? Again, welcome to the board. Take care.
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Post by gingerrussell on Jun 23, 2008 3:12:13 GMT -5
Hello pumpkin 12903. No, I don't mind your asking what happened to the perpetrator in my brother's murder. I wish I could tell you they are rotting in prison, or better yet, that they are dead, but... It's been 22 years (or will be on Aug. 19th), and we are still no closer to knowing the identity of the @#$%. Even after wire taps, interviews, and my mother wearing a wire as well as her own personal recording device, the police have hit a dead end. I have come to terms with the fact that I will, most likely, never know who killed my brother in such a gruesome manner. For me, I have had to let the anger of the investigation subside, but the sense of aloneness can get overwhelming at times. I mean seriously, how many cases do you hear about where the culprit was caught 5, 10, or 20 years later? Not many at all. I try to hold on to the hope that someone will come forward, or that the evidence the police have will lead to someone of interest, but I have seen enough crime shows to know the reality of such an outcome. I don't want to seem pessimistic, but at some point you have to look the facts in the face. My brother was killed over drugs, he was 21, and had a record... case closed. I guess I joined this site in hopes of reviving my spirit. Unfortunately, being 22 years into this, then seeing all the loved ones just beginning the journey, I feel a bit distraught. What can I possibly say to these people who are feeling the raw pain of it all, when I, at times, am still feeling the same pain. I hoped to give some words of wisdom, but am now seeking some of my own. I'm sorry if I have brought more sorrow to anyone. I don't live every day like this. It's just, at this site, sitting here alone, I feel like I can let my true emotions out. Thanks for listening.
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Post by Misty419 on Jun 23, 2008 15:42:44 GMT -5
Shadow, My 12 year old son was killed by my brother, He strangled him to death , I did not see the crime scene photo's yet but did view the autopsy photo's , before the autopsy of course, I think it depends on how the victim lost his life, for me there was very little blood, but once you see those photo's it's very hard to get the sight out of your head and does make you very angry. My son had been dead for 5 years before I seen the photo's , I do agree that you need someone with you when you see them, it wont be easy but may answer some questions for you . god bless and hope this helps. Misty Robbins ( weyman Arizona Robbins) 6-14-90- 12-18-02
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Post by ginger on Jun 26, 2008 8:36:22 GMT -5
Hello pumpkin 12903. No, I don't mind your asking what happened to the perpetrator in my brother's murder. I wish I could tell you they are rotting in prison, or better yet, that they are dead, but... It's been 22 years (or will be on Aug. 19th), and we are still no closer to knowing the identity of the @#$%. Even after wire taps, interviews, and my mother wearing a wire as well as her own personal recording device, the police have hit a dead end. I have come to terms with the fact that I will, most likely, never know who killed my brother in such a gruesome manner. For me, I have had to let the anger of the investigation subside, but the sense of aloneness can get overwhelming at times. I mean seriously, how many cases do you hear about where the culprit was caught 5, 10, or 20 years later? Not many at all. I try to hold on to the hope that someone will come forward, or that the evidence the police have will lead to someone of interest, but I have seen enough crime shows to know the reality of such an outcome. I don't want to seem pessimistic, but at some point you have to look the facts in the face. My brother was killed over drugs, he was 21, and had a record... case closed. I guess I joined this site in hopes of reviving my spirit. Unfortunately, being 22 years into this, then seeing all the loved ones just beginning the journey, I feel a bit distraught. What can I possibly say to these people who are feeling the raw pain of it all, when I, at times, am still feeling the same pain. I hoped to give some words of wisdom, but am now seeking some of my own. I'm sorry if I have brought more sorrow to anyone. I don't live every day like this. It's just, at this site, sitting here alone, I feel like I can let my true emotions out. Thanks for listening. gingerrussell, you're not bringing anymore sorrow to us. This is exactly what this board is for. My husband of almost 30 yrs was murdered over drugs and money. So......................
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