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Post by toniga on Nov 9, 2005 6:33:30 GMT -5
i dont know if anyone has posted about this subject but I am new so here is goes: Growing up as a kid I was known as the child of a murder.I was compared to my mother. I was made fun of my a few kids in school.i also had the added complications of when she was released: she would call and call and show up at my grandparents unannounced,beating up my aunt and the cops showing up at my house as the school bus drove by,the kidnapping attempt.being forced to see her in the mental hospitals,her stabbing her boyfriend.Then as I got older we happen to know some of the same people(bartenders).I will never forget this as long as i live,this one guy(his brother owned a bar i would frequent).somehow the guy knew who my mother was and then tells me "haha she killed one and stabbed another". wow i guess my dad bleeding from a rifle wound in front of my sister who was 3 years old at the time,is so hysterical.The crap people say.My fathers murder is not entertainment for some piece of crap.Sorry I had to rant.I would NEVER say anything so vile to someone whose loved one was killed.i get so upset.this was the a father who had children,who lost his adopted parents in a car wreck,who suffered and was dying in front if his three year old daughter.How can you get humor from that?Pisses me off so much.
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Post by myamber20 on Nov 9, 2005 8:15:26 GMT -5
I understand too well of what you are saying A co worker wanted to know so badly how I found out my daughter was murdered. Yeah I do think it is some kind of drama for them (jerks) I say nothing to any one about the DETAILS. sOME people have really helped me and some I do not even talk to anymore because I reallly found out what kind of people they are. MVS suffer so much as it is. We do not need this added coldness, insensitiveness. And if it makes you feel better tell these people what you think of thier comments and manners. Thankyou Peace, carolyn ambers mom
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lilbird
Old Hand
Regular
Posts: 546
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Post by lilbird on Nov 9, 2005 9:07:16 GMT -5
yeah, that is some really deep pain when someone thinks of our tragedy as "entertainment". I also get upset seeing some of these high profiled cases on tv and knowing how the families feel and that it's just "entertainment" for the public watching.
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Post by toniga on Nov 9, 2005 16:14:52 GMT -5
myamber20: People can be so harsh and it's upsetting.I do tell people how what I feel about their comments now.Some people think I am rude when I tell them what jerks they are.Oh well for them.We don't need the added coldness but so often we get it.This is why I am grateful for this forum.The world can be a cold place for all of us MVS.I realised that at a young age.I am so sorry for the loss of your daughter.I truely am.
Lilibird: I do think of how the families must feel.The victims usually get ignored and the victimizer gets made into a superstar.When I read or hear about cases in the media I think about the invasion into MVS lives at the worst possible time.
I just remembered something ,I am going to be involved in a study about what happens to children when a parent murders another. I have the info if anyone would like information on participating in this study.I dont know if this is approp. if not I can edit this part.
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Post by wordup on Nov 9, 2005 21:24:50 GMT -5
I WILL JUST ADD THIS: YES YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT, THIS IS A CRUEL THING THAT IS BEING DONE TO THE MVS, AND IT IS LIKE PEOPLE GET OFF ON THIS, I REMEMBER THE JOKES SOME OF THEM WERE MAKING ABOUT MY BABY, YET THERE WERE SO MANY THAT WERE AS ANGRY AS I WAS,OF COURSE IT DIDN'T SEEM IT WAS ANY PEOPLE THAT I CARED ABOUT, IT WAS JUST THOSE THAT'S IN MY CITY, THAT HAD BEEN KEEPING UP WITH IT. HOWEVER I THOUGH THE MEDIA WAS PUTTING TO MUCH ATTENTION ON THE MONSTER, SO I TAUGHT OK, THEN I WILL SPEAK FOR MY GRANDSON, LETTING THE PEOPLE KNOW THIS MAN IS NO HERO HE IS A MONSTER, MY GRANDSON COULD NOT HAVE DEFENDED HIMSELF AND HE DIDN'T DESERVE WHAT HE DID TO HIM, THIS I REALLY SPOKE LOUD A CLEAR ABOUT, SO LOUD I SPOKE, THEY PUT ME ON WHAT THEY CALLED THE RULE, WOULDN'T EVEN LET ME GO INTO THE COURTROOM TO SET IN ON THE TRIAL, MAYBE THEY THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO MESS UP THE CASE OR SOMETHING, BUT I SPOKE EVERYTIME I HAD A CHANCE, AND TODAY GIVEN A CHANCE I WILL REMIND ANYBODY, I TOOK MY LOSS AS JUST THAT, MY LOSS AND HE IS GONE AND THE MONSTER STILL LIVES. THEN I THINK ABOUT MY SURVIVING GRANDSON, GROWING UP, WHAT WILL I HAVE TO DO, WHEN HE IS OLDER WILL HE BE VICTIMIZE AGAIN, BECAUSE OF WHAT HIS FATHER HAS DONE? THIS TRULY BOTHERS ME SOMETIMES AT LEAST WHEN I THINK ABOUT IT. ANYWAY I'VE GONE ON, I WILL GO, EVERYBODY TAKE CARE.
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Post by Cherry on Nov 11, 2005 18:26:08 GMT -5
I can't believe how callous some people are. I remember an acquaintence asking how my nieces were doing (he was interested in dating them) about 8 months after my sister had been murdered. When I told him that they were coping as best they could, he got this blank look on his face, paused, and they said something like "they aren't over them yet?" I couldn't believe it. How can a person ever be "over it" let alone that soon?
Cherry
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Post by myamber20 on Nov 11, 2005 18:36:57 GMT -5
my boss asked me the other day "are you ok now' ? (it has only been a month 1/2 since my beloved daughter was murdered) I replied no. I asked him how he would be if HIS daughter was murdered. He replied with I dont know. Of course he doesnt know. Then he replied well life goes on you have to go on. Yeah well I know that. I thought to myself he is just glad it isnt HIS daughter but dont tell me it cant happen to THEM too. Murder can and does happen to anybody of any culture, sex, middle class, rich, poor. People can just be so callous. "oH IT WONT HAPPEN TO ME" I am not wishing at all any ill will but THIS can happen to anyone. Thankyou, peace carolyn ambers mommy
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Post by mattsma on Nov 11, 2005 23:22:54 GMT -5
>:(It can and it does. And no-one knows until it happens to them just how devistating murder is. (((((hugs)))) b-safe deb
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Post by toniga on Nov 12, 2005 19:44:13 GMT -5
Wordup:you caring will help him greatly.If my family had cared like you do I am sure it would have cushion the fall.keep caring and it will give the self esteem to deal with whatever is thrown his way.
Cherry: Sometimes people are just so clueless.you never get over something like that completely.you manage with what is sent your way but you never "get over it".that saying annoys me so greatly.to the people who say that if they think we should "get over it" then why don't they send me or you the perfect "way to get over it".I am so sorry someone said that to you.What a jerk!
myamber20: I cant believe someone would say that to you.My heart goes out to you.i know what you mean about how it could happen to anyone.I am taking a criminal investigation class and the things people have said makes me want to yell these people were human beings!I did say something out loud because i was upset at the words people say.I really know what you mean when you type it can happen to anyone.We have an awareness that is taboo to talk about unless its in small doses.
I just want you all to know your stories and loved ones matter to me in this harsh world.Your pain and strength matter.I am so suprised anyone replyed to my post.I feel that I can post and someone will understand my pain and strength it takes to face life.if anyone needs support you can message me or email me:tonga916sac@yahoo.com. I will NEVER tell anyone in here to "get over it".
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Post by wordup on Nov 19, 2005 16:52:25 GMT -5
Thank Toniga, for those kind words of encouragement, truly I do what I can to keep the family moving alone, but getting over it, is not apart of nor is it an option for me, I was effected by this thing, all I could think of was, what can I do to help the next family, you know, to give of my time, tell my story ect.... I come here and I read the posts of others, and I know all to well what they are saying and what they are going trough, and at the same time wishing that I was there with them, so they can really know that what I feel about what they have lost is as you have said. I do care about what they are going through and how they are feeling, All the more reason for coming here,that is knowing at any given time we may be approched by someone that will say to us some of the things that we have read about in the above post, I do wonder about some people, yet I feel thet are not those who can identify with what we have lost and what we go through just to get through the day. Again I thank you for those kind words and I will take them in the manner they were given, I say also to you, if I can be of help to you, please feel free to contact me. I'm here. take care.
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Post by toniga on Nov 19, 2005 23:44:57 GMT -5
thanks also to yourself.i think i will take you up on that offer to contact you.i ve been feeling crappy with the holidays coming up and not much closeness with most of my family members(they made me into a black sheep and it gets OLD) and also my grandparents guilting me to contact my mom(who is going to be at thanksgiving dinner at my grandparents).i did have sporatic contact with my mom but i stopped talking to her because it stressed me out so much.she would say things like "if only your father was here things would be so different".it hurts even more.i used to think one day i would have a normal life but she ruined that chance for me with not just killing my dad but her kidnapping attempt.i feel so unsafe because of that.i dont get some people but thanks for the offer,i would like your contact info.i really need someone who understands what its like.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 20, 2005 10:12:25 GMT -5
Dear Toniga, I'm sorry you've been through this. It's truly disgusting how some people have treated you. You are NOT YOUR MOTHER! I hate, hate, hate how people believe that cliche about "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree". Well, guess what people, cliches aren't ALWAYS TRUE! I experienced this sickness a few times right off after the murders. But the worst to me was when I went to a support group for murder survivors. I DID NOT tell my full story to begin with, for various reasons. When I DID tell the full story, saying my Mother was the 1 who did it, some of the people there started acting afraid of me. And the number of condolences, etc., went down. This was from OTHER SURVIVORS is what I've never got over??!! After that, once I get to know someone and see he/she can be trusted, I'll tell them some of my story. IF he/she doesn't act afraid of me then I'll tell the rest. If he/she does, then I don't. This is the policy I follow with those who become friends. I think this stigma is rotten and wrong. I think the more support there is, like this board, the less the stigma will happen. Getting our stories out helps and inspires others to come out also saying they need support and help, like the support and help on this board. Again, I'm sorry for all who posted that have been through this.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 20, 2005 10:20:49 GMT -5
Dear Toniga, I wanted to say also please don't give it to others' pressures about your relationship with your Mom. I went through this to a degree with 1 of my family. It was my decision that after the 1 time I saw her I never wanted an in person relationship with her again. I could only cope with calling/writing at times. You know how you feel and how much you can cope with and others don't have the right to insist what you should do, as they're not you and everyone heals and gets through this trauma at different speeds. I did love my Mom and still do but what she did was so bad that I felt we could never go back to how we were. I was also mindful of the possibility of what she might do if she got her freedom again. I felt she should have never been out of the hospital again and am very thankful that she wasn't. I got 2 professional opinions on this issue (1 from my psychologist at the time) and 1 of them said I wasn't even ready mentally to see her in person. Take care and if you ever need to talk, my e-mail is on my profile.
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silver
First-time poster
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Post by silver on Nov 20, 2005 10:54:14 GMT -5
Hello from London. 5 months ago, my mother was murdered and my dad was arrested for it. She was not murdered in the home, but by her workplace. My sisters and I don't know if he did it or not, being that there are many factors that have to be taken into consideration such as, he's quite old and suffers arthiritis in his legs. The coroner's report showed she was stabbed 14 times in the chest, neck and abdomen. It's discomorting to know how commonplace murder in the family occurs. The trial is in February, and he's pleading not guilty.In terms of what has happened, I don't think I have had enough time to really get to grips with what has happened. It's like people want to know how people are affected by murder; it's like they're facinated with it. Lately I've been questioning who to trust, who to rely on. As for others on this board I suppose I have no trouble experiencing how you guys must feel. I guess for me, I'm suspending my emotion and feelings until I know for sure who has done this horrific crime. If it was my dad, I don't really know what I'd do, but we'll have to wait and see in February. Will people, as you say Toniga, act different towards me should he be guilty?
Peace, love and support to those who have suffered similar.
Silverley
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Post by toniga on Nov 20, 2005 19:25:36 GMT -5
Hmm, Silver, I think there are good people out there who will not care if he is guilty or not. I am sorry about your situation. I think the social stigma in my case comes from the fact I was born in prison and people get freaked out that I was in the womb when it happened.Try not to think about what could happen right now if at all possible in regards how people will treat you in the future, you have a lot on your plate right now.I hope that didn't come out rude or pushy because I mean it with kindness. If you need anything I can give feel free to PM me.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 21, 2005 11:18:14 GMT -5
Dear Silver, I'm very sorry about your Dad. I agree with Toniga you have a lot to deal with right now. Go easy on yourself at this time. Good people who are together themselves won't treat you different when they find out. There are good people out there who will still treat you the same. I've had it happen and the number that didn't were small in number which is good. Those who did I quit associating with anyway so it worked out in the long run. Please let us know how you are and I'm glad you found this board. Take care.
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Post by toniga on Nov 22, 2005 19:56:23 GMT -5
Oops I wanted to reply to pumpkin.It's such a releif someone understands what I have been thru.so many people including my husband don't get what I have been thru.being born in prison then having to go visit my mom who was a stranger to me was so stressful and also the visits to the mental hospitals she was in freaked me out.i think i can handle seeing her on thanksgiving but not daily.i tend to get stressed more during thr holidays since i have to see my aunts and uncles who i dont like because they dont like me or my siblings but this year i dont have any plans on being in the same room as them.Also holidays are a reminder of my dad being dead.i dont know why.i think its just wondering how my life could have been had this not happened.the what ifs.thanks for the understanding is is much needed!
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Post by wordup on Nov 24, 2005 0:51:01 GMT -5
Toniga I think you have made a wise chose, by not putting yourself in that position, Hoildays now for me, is much different than what I have been used to in the past, and I don't need any exta dramer eighter, so do what you have to do, take care.
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Post by cynthiak on Nov 29, 2005 5:43:50 GMT -5
My stepfather is on death row in Tennessee and everytime I mention going to possibly face the bastard,I have tons of people volunteering to go with me for "moral support". Luckily, I have one friend who refuses to go. She says she couldn't handle seeing me upset with something like that but she tells me how the others have had a little "contest" to see who will get to go. They all sit around and talk about how its like the movie of the week or something. I even had one tell me its "cool" to know someone like me. WTF does that mean?
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Post by myamber20 on Nov 29, 2005 9:30:55 GMT -5
people want the drama in thier lives and if it is not hurting any of thier loved ones they are wanting to know all the details, going ons, emotions of it all. These people need to take a look at themselves.
They are no people I want anything to do with
carolyn ambers mom
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Post by toniga on Nov 30, 2005 7:33:06 GMT -5
I want to thank you all who offered me support.I did see my mom at Thanksgiving,it wasn't that bad and sometimes I wonder why I feel so bad when I feel forgiveness towards her.I looked at her and thought that she isn't the same person, but sometimes all the pain is still there and it festers.On one hand ,I hate what she did ,and then I see her now, and she just seemed so drained and remorseful.I don't love her but sometimes I feel empathy for her.Now, I have to prepare for Xmas when I will go to my mother in law's who told me to "get over it".If it was that easy to "get over it" ,wouldn't I be at that place?There is no getting over it ,because I have seen what I have seen at times and I can't pretend to not be affected by what happened in my entire life as a result of this and considering I am still alive with a productive life still hanging in there is s feat in its self ,and I am where I am at, and I will not feel like crap for it or feel ashamed.I think we were dealt a cruel blow and I think the fact we wake up everyday shows our strength.I read the posts in this forum and I am so upset that people have hurt you guys.I am so sorry and really you are in my thoughts.To those who are in great pain please keep one foot in front of the other I am sure your love( i spell love not loved because the love you feel is present tense not past) ones would want that.
Cynthiak: I really know to some degree about what you are talking about ,of course not entirely ,but the crap people say sometimes amazes me.A "contest"??!?Wrong wrong wrong!Excuse me, but this is your life and not some game!So wrong of them! I have had a few people either imply how "cool" they thought it was ,or make jokes, or say things they assume is funny.One jerk in my criminal investigations class really upset me when he made some stupid joke I will not repeat ,so I made some comment back in a sarcastic manner. See they can go back to their lives, but we have to live with this.I wish I was there to give you support.
I seriously thank my lucky stars for this forum and the understanding and comfort people have offered and I hope one day I can give people support.
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Post by Cherry on Nov 30, 2005 15:17:29 GMT -5
Toniga,
It seems to me that you are doing really well, everything considered. I can't believe your mother-in-law would have told you to get over it. Keep hanging in there and try to ignore those ignorant people who say those stupid and insensitive things to you. We all know this isn't something you just get over...you've had the repercussions to deal with your whole life. I can't imagine - I've only been going through this for a bit over 2 years and am still having difficulty with it. Thinking of you.
Hugs, Cherry
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Post by Snowleopard on Dec 2, 2005 4:36:08 GMT -5
I think groups of people go both ways and there are times when the opposite way is also undesirable. Ie, in my world, a lot of people don't want to know all the details of cases I may be researching, that I have experienced. They understand that I have to fill my mind with such horrors but they don't want to talk about it, want to talk about something else. Hence, there, they are not looking at one's knowledge as a form of entertainment.
But this lack of interest can go the other direction as well, such as when one has to talk about it to another, and there is no one around, no one who wants to be immersed in such a world. To that, there is the third side of the coin. There are two types in this world, those who chose to be in it, those who are forced into it. Those who aren't in it don't want to be and they don't want to be around someone who talks about it.
And for those who seek out "drama"? Perhaps I learned it early on. When I was commenting about a police show and my father told, rather angerly, a situation from his experience (he was a general) of how evil some people really are, can be, and what was on tv was nothing.
As far as those who say they are there for "moral support"? Of how "lucky" they are to know someone as such? Generally, they sound like jerks................. but..........., in my world, from time to time, I find myself, I will volunteer to be someone's representative or a second or an advocate or a spokesperson or something similar. I am there to be with should they need someone, to be a thinking mind out of the turmoil to supply possible answers when the vision is cloudy, or something similar.
A family example. Years ago, when my brother was being a J E R K, the family made the 1000+ mile trip to grandma's house on ThanksGiving. He didn't go because he didn't want to, because of the bad feelings being generated. I didn't go because I didn't think it was good for the whole area family to go off and leave him alone. I stayed in the area so there was someone he could turn to if he wanted, so he wouldn't be alone. He didn't call, I spent my Thanksgiving morning running a foot race, being sort of with "friends", but I was there, was available if needed.
Do I consider myself "lucky" to be in such a situation? Luck is not the word. In this part of my life, where I do the role of a confident or something of a guide, I am glad that I have been there to help someone along. It is a job that I will do and will do willingly and while I wish that people didn't have to face such, ................ there is still some concept of good fortune in being able to do be such a guide.
Perhaps my kittens say it best on this illustration of luck. My kittens, Isis and Osiris, rescued from an animal shelter, who have a warm home as oppose to being a dumpster cat. Children that make me laugh, make me worry, bring me close to tears when I can't play with them because of work, I so often say to them,
"Oh, I am so lucky that you two decided to adopt me!"
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Dec 3, 2005 11:24:37 GMT -5
Dear CynthiaK, I think it's people who have NOT been through this see it as some kind of game or entertainment. I think it's plain wrong and hurtful. There's so little empathy around. Years ago, a few years before the murders in my family, I was watching the TV movie "Helter Skelter" about the Charles Manson murders and remember saying to myself "That'll never happen to me". Well, it did a few years later. I remember my attitude of smug arrogance. Now it makes me feel ashamed. I never thought I'd lose my Dad and Grandma at the hands of my Mother then, or ever. We NEVER know what life is going to hand us. After that I plan as much as I can for every possibility, a trait which my current counselor commends! She said it's 1 good trait to have come out of the whole thing. Those around you who see this as some kind of game aren't caring friends. They need some work on themselves to get some badly needed empathy. Take care.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Dec 3, 2005 11:32:09 GMT -5
Toniga, I agree about our Mothers also. I'm glad you made it through Thanksgiving. I know what you mean, every holiday I think of my Dad and Grandma. I have a lot of great memories for both of them, and my Mom also. I go Christmas shopping every year alone to be with those memories, as Mom and I would go every year. The last year she fought with me most of the day, as her mental illness was getting worse and worse. I can understand how you feel some empathy for your Mom. I do for mine in that I can understand her fear in treating her mental illness. It's a scary thing. I felt that way when I asked my 1st counselor if I had her illness, kind of waiting with dread to hear. The family thing: oh YES! Same here to a degree. I'm kind of between 2 family members where 1 won't forgive the other about stuff with my Mom. And the other 1 won't admit stuff about my Mom! So I hear it from both sides. It's very hard to deal with after everything else we've been through. I think you've done amazingly well with your life. I love reading your posts and think it's great the help you give others on here, including me. Take care.
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Post by toniga on Dec 4, 2005 8:38:09 GMT -5
pumpkin, your post reminded me of something that is true for me.i think about my mother in law and how maybe its that i have a different point of reference than she does obviously.i am coming from a different place than she is, but i cant pretend to be this perfect unscared person just for her or anyone else.i have this level of awareness that i cant shake.i have accepted it but so many others cant.i guess my life,in her eyes, is a reminder about how this could happen to anyone.i think to others i am pillar of strength.i refuse to give up until my last breath and i dont want others to give up either. pumpkin i was also thinking about how there is so little sympathy ,and i think because people are so misinformed, with small sound bites from the media and thats all they know.people met me and they have so many misconceptions about what its really like.sorry this stream of conciousness writting and not organized.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Dec 18, 2005 17:57:16 GMT -5
I agree with you on never giving up! I'll never give up on not repeating how my Mother's life was, which means I'll do everything I need to to treat the results of the trauma on me. I know what you mean about tower of strength. Those around me assume I can handle anything, and not always remembering that due to trauma I have a harder time handling regular life stuff than people who haven't been traumatized. I agree, too, about the sound bites, etc. That's why this board is so great, the healing comes from us coming out and talking to each other. My long-term goals with this are to do a website specifically for murder in the family survivors, then an in person support group. The word needs to get out. There's just not enough support. Murder in the family survivors have specific issues to deal with for sure.
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Post by toniga on Dec 18, 2005 23:23:10 GMT -5
thanks pumpkin.i really thank you for the support you have given and also the understanding.i wouldnt mind helping you with the web site if you need it!
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Post by Charlene on Dec 24, 2005 14:02:41 GMT -5
Hi Silverley. I'm very sorry about your mom. I expect that anyone you know who would treat you differently, they already do, since your father's arrest. Unless human nature is very different in the UK, people who have not treated you strangely since your dad was arrested will still be supportive even if your father is found to be guilty of her murder. Charlene Hello from London. 5 months ago, my mother was murdered and my dad was arrested for it. She was not murdered in the home, but by her workplace. My sisters and I don't know if he did it or not, being that there are many factors that have to be taken into consideration such as, he's quite old and suffers arthiritis in his legs. The coroner's report showed she was stabbed 14 times in the chest, neck and abdomen. It's discomorting to know how commonplace murder in the family occurs. The trial is in February, and he's pleading not guilty.In terms of what has happened, I don't think I have had enough time to really get to grips with what has happened. It's like people want to know how people are affected by murder; it's like they're facinated with it. Lately I've been questioning who to trust, who to rely on. As for others on this board I suppose I have no trouble experiencing how you guys must feel. I guess for me, I'm suspending my emotion and feelings until I know for sure who has done this horrific crime. If it was my dad, I don't really know what I'd do, but we'll have to wait and see in February. Will people, as you say Toniga, act different towards me should he be guilty? Peace, love and support to those who have suffered similar. Silverley
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Jan 8, 2006 16:43:43 GMT -5
Toniga, thanks also to you for your support. If I need any help with the website, I'll let you know. My plan is to work on it gradually, but have it ready this year. I missed my goal of last year for various reasons. Thanks again for the offer and take care.
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