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Post by drewsmom595 on Feb 17, 2006 12:43:46 GMT -5
My brother's trial is coming up in April, and already I am stressing about it. He is mentally ill and shot and killed my father over two years ago. I am told that I will be called as a witness for both the defense and prosecution. I am so nervous as I have so many mixed emotions. I fear facing my brother in court. The truth is that no matter what the outcome, I won't like it. What I wish would happen is that my brother would be sent to a mental hospital for the rest of his life. But I am told that in the state of FL, that won't happen. If he is found not guilty by reason of insanity, there's a good chance he'll be free in two years (what the defense attorney wants). The prosecution wants to send my brother to prison for the rest of his life. From what I've read, the mental health care in prison is virtually nonexistent! I do like the fact that he can never be free if he goes to prison, but he is so mentally ill that I'm afraid he will be victimized in prison. So, no matter what happens, there really isn't a resolution that I can feel comfortable with. Has anyone else experienced these mixed emotions?
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juan
First-time poster
Posts: 1
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Post by juan on Feb 18, 2006 8:29:37 GMT -5
My 27 year old nephew murdered my 84 year old mother in August of 2004. Needless to say, the pain has been at times unbearable. We went through shock, anguish and denial. The trial, looks like it's coming up. We are also in Florida. He was charged with first degree. He had a drug problem and previous mental history (psychiatric care, baker acted). The State is not going for the death penalty. I felt, if it that was something they asked for, so be it. But I'm not sure really what the State wants. I feel my mom is just another of the many cases for this fast talking prosecutor. They speak of trial and how difficult that would be to us (I have two sisters - one is his mom). I feel he needs to, 1) pay for the gruesome murder that he committed, and 2) I don't want him out in my lifetime.
Having said that, the thought of asking for the death penalty is impossible. His grandmother wouldn't want me to do that. Although at times I think to put him to death would be to put him out of his pain. But it seems plea bargaining is in the air. The prosecutor is scaring us out of a trial and she's doing a good job of it. I don't look forward to seeing pictures of my mom or to see him in front of me. Although that would be nothing compared to what she went through.
I'm afraid (and I don't know how it works here in Florida), that he's going to get less than life then get paroled out. Then one day, he'll show up at my door to ask forgiveness or who know why. He's tried calling me from prison several times and has written. I handed the unread letter to the prosecutor, what could he possible say to me? Sorry, I made a mistake? I didn't mean to?
I apologize, I went into my thing. I guess all of us that come here do that. I don't know if hearing my story helps any. It helped me a little to know that someone else is ambivalent about the punishment a family member might receive. I find it unfair that in essence my sister (not his mom) and I need to be the administers of the punishment. If we don't stand up and ask for "something" he may end up free very soon. I keep thinking what would my mom want? Okay, I know she doesn't want the death penalty. But life? 50 years? 30? 20? My mom at 84 was tougher than all of us put together. That's why in her stubborn way allowed him to stay with her just one week, until he got into treatment one more time.
I think some of this things have to be left up to "life" to take its course. If he gets killed in prison, there was nothing I could do. My mom certainly didn't ask to be beaten to death and then buried in her own back yard. I try to get as much help as I can. I see a therapist, stay in close touch with my friends, exercise, do what i have to do. Not much else. I felt I should have been able to prevent this from happening, but everyone says I couldn't. So if I couldn't prevent this, I can't prevent anything else coming down the pike. All I can do is be the best I can (boy that's corny). Today, I am going to a fashion show of my best friend's five year old granddaughter (who has adopted me as another "grandfather"). I'm going to clean my house, run some errands, have dinner with friends. Tomorrow will be another day, then another and so on. Who knows where all this will go?
I wish you luck. Where are you inFlorida? I'm in Miami. I haven't met anyone else in similar situation as mine. If I can be of any help, please write back.
Juan
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Post by wordup on Feb 19, 2006 2:30:27 GMT -5
Hi Juan, so sorry to hear about your mom, and I do understand what you are dealing with. I too can relate to some of what you have said, and in your case, you are in between a rock and a hard place, I've said this only because, it was your nephew that did this, and not a stranger, which is as it was in our case. the nephew has mental issues, the guy in our case has mental issues. Who is right or wrong when it comes to what to do with them, I'm like you, I don't know, but what I can say is, they should not be alowed to walk free, time need to be served somewhere. My story is long, but I just wanted you to know I understand what you are going through. Take care.
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Post by wordup on Feb 19, 2006 2:44:49 GMT -5
Also to you Dewsmom, I say this, as I'm really on the oppisite side of the fense, yet my heart does have compassion for those who are in your position. my grandson was 6yrs old when he was murderd by his little brother's father, I later learned that he had murdered his sister a few years before that, It is a scarey thought, because he was declared not guilty by reason of insanity, he spend only a few month in a mental hospital see( http://www.tredevin.org) now he is in prison. I can only imagine you guys having those mixed emotions. and I still can say this, I hope things go as they should for both of you, whatever that may be, as for me I'm still trying to understand it all. take care.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Feb 19, 2006 8:15:08 GMT -5
Dear Drewsmom595, I've experienced these conflicting emotions to a degree. We didn't go to trial, but at the same time we never tried to make it easier on my Mom. I remember talking to 1 of the doctors that was involved in her competency hearing preparation and I was honest with him about how she was acting before she did it. We had a civil trial against her last medical doctor and the family testified as to her state of mind near the end also. I felt this was needed in order to get this doctor to be held accountable in some way, as the "care" he provided her was a joke. I can't believe if your brother is found not guilty by reason of insanity all he gets is 2 years??!! GOD HELP US! There needs to be "guilty but insane" verdict so badly for these cases like ours. Your wish for your brother was my wish for my Mom, that she be in a mental hospital for the rest of her life. I felt that though she showed remorse in some ways, she should never be out again. Plus her mental state got worse and worse and she couldn't have been out on her own anyway. You're right about the mental health care in prison. If there is any it's news to me. 1 thing that worked for us when Mom was in the state hospital was her guardian (another family member) stayed very involved in her care, visiting quite a bit and reading them the riot act when things went wrong. Maybe this would work for you in your situation. I experience mixed emotions about Mom to this day, and miss her every day. I know this board really helps for us to talk to each other on here, to people that have been there. Please keep us updated on your case and take care.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Feb 19, 2006 8:34:20 GMT -5
Dear Juan, I'm very sorry about your Mom. I'm glad you found this board. I also see a therapist, and have for many years. It's saved my life. I agree with you, you do what you need to, to re-make your life. Please keep us updated on your case and take care.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 4, 2006 8:40:25 GMT -5
Dear Juan, pumpkin12903 and wordup:
Thanks so much for your thoughts and words of encouragement. It means a lot to me. It helps me to know there are others who are ambivalent about what their family member who killed another family member are facing. I guess in my instance what keeps me from totally hating my brother is the fact that he is so severely mentally ill. It somehow lessens his culpability in my mind, though doesn't diminish it totally. I've spoken with a few psychiatrist who, though they haven't evaluated my brother, tell me that in their minds my brother didn't have control over his actions and did not -- could not -- have the intent to do what he did. I miss my Dad so much every day that it still hurts. I guess I'm just going to have to get used to living with pain. I wish I could get to the point where I remember him, or remember something funny that he did, without tears welling in my eyes. The way he died, and the last moments of his life, just haunt me. And, Juan, I live in the Tampa Bay area.
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Post by meme on Mar 4, 2006 19:52:15 GMT -5
Dear Drewsmom, This is such a difficult journey for you. All you can do is tell the truth in court. The mental ward of a prison is separated from the prison's general population. All his peers in prison will be the mentally ill as well. Do you want to see your brother in jail? Have you talked to him? Maybe you could explain what you have to do (testify) and let him know that you care for him too.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 5, 2006 10:08:18 GMT -5
Dear Drewsmom595, you're welcome. When I saw my Mother the 1 time in the mental hospital, her state of mind made me so sad. She was just destroyed. I felt and feel sympathy for that like you do for your brother. If you don't mind my asking, when did your brother 1st have symptoms of his illness? My Mother had some symptoms from the time I was in grade school, but it was the few years before she did it that it was the worst. I'm glad that we could be of help to you and please keep us updated. Take care.
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Post by dle7154 on Mar 11, 2006 0:39:35 GMT -5
I had to testify against my brother almost four years ago, he had murdered my mother. I testified for both sides and it was the most difficult thing I've ever done. He was, in the end, found not guilty by reason of insanity and is in a hospital for the criminally insane. \
It will be difficult when you first look at him and have to identify your own brother. I was flooded with emotion and completely lost my composure for some time. In the end the jury reached the correct verdict because he is truly ill. If your brother is truly mentally ill, prison it the last place for him. Be honest and God Bless.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 11, 2006 6:50:15 GMT -5
To answer some of your questions...It is so hard to go visit my brother in jail. At first, I went to visit him weekly. But as the months have stretched to years (it's been 2 1/2 years since he killed my father), it has really taken a toll on me emotionally. I'm sad to say that I haven't visited him very frequently in the last six months...mainly because it's better for my sanity. He isn't receiving the proper medicine in jail, so he is very delusional. I never know if he's going to scream at me or blame me for him being in jail. He doesn't really understand why he can't come home. He doesn't take responsibility for his actions...he's "not guilty", according to him. I feel bad for not visiting him more often, but frankly I feel worse when I go see him. Guilt is my common companion.
So, I have tried telling him many times that I am trying to get him in a better place (e.g., a mental hospital), but he doesn't understand. He simply wants to "come home." It's very sad.
I, too, will be testifying for both sides...just like dle7154. I break down in tears just thinking about being so public about something which causes me such intense pain, fear and shame. I am currently 43 years old, and my brother has been "sick" since his early 20s. So, for over 20 years, I have been ashamed of my brother. The media attention surrounding my Dad's death was unbelievable. And I expect the same for my brother's trial. It's bad enough when your brother kills your father. But it's a million times worse when it's broadcast far and wide in virtually every media outlet for days on end.
Even worse is that much of my Dad's family hates my brother and think that the death penalty is too good for him. So, they're really unsympathetic to my mixed emotions for my brother.
This board is really a lifeline for me. I can't thank all of you enough for listening to me...and trying to understand where I'm coming from. Knowing that there are other people who have experienced what I am experiencing...knowing that dle7154 survived testifying for both sides really helps!
The trial is scheduled for April 18, but there's a pre-trial this Monday. There's been so many delays in this case, I am going to the pre-trial to see if this time the trial actually will take place as scheduled.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 11, 2006 6:54:55 GMT -5
dle7154:
I forgot to ask you a question in my earlier post:
Aren't you afraid that your brother will eventually be released from the mental hospital? Who will take care of your brother then? Are you afraid for your own safety?
Sorry...I realized I asked you more than just one question.
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Post by dle7154 on Mar 12, 2006 1:16:10 GMT -5
Drewsmom595,
In response to your questions I would say no, I don't fear his release, I live some distance from his location and I don't plan on ever seeing him again. However, my sisters live close to where he is housed and I fear for them, and they for themselves.
It's erie for me to read your posts because it strikes very close to home. My brother was in his early 20's when he first started to lose it and spent over 15 years battling schizophrenia and paranoia before our tragedy. Right after he did this he tolds us all he was sorry and knew it was wrong, however people in this condition are usually motivated by self-interest and are self asborbed. To this day I wonder what truly happened that day and what his true purpose was. It took a jury a couple of hours to determine he was insane and they made the right call. There was no media attention at his trial and I and my family were grateful for that.
Let me say this to conclude. I made a determination to not takes sides in my testimony. His defense attorney told me that my testimony would be the key and wanted me in their corner. I informed him early on that if I testified that I was going to tell the truth and let the chips fall. It was those mixed emotions I had then, and still do today almost 4 year later, that made me somewhat indifferent to his fate. Fortunately, he's in a good place and getting help. Few people are put in the position of having to look out from a jury box and see their own blood as the evil one. I wish you the best.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 12, 2006 6:33:07 GMT -5
dle7154:
I get the same eerie feeling when I read your posts. My brother's defense attorney told me that I, too, will be key. And I have also decided not to take sides, but to just simply tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Thank you for all your advice...I'm so sorry for what you went through and still are going through. If it makes you feel any better, I think I totally understand how you feel. Take care, and I wish you the best, too.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 12, 2006 13:16:51 GMT -5
Dear Dle7154, I'm very sorry about your Mother. I'm glad you found this board and hope you find some comfort here.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 12, 2006 13:41:41 GMT -5
Dear Drewsmom595, I can understand how you feel about seeing your brother in this state. I saw my Mother only once after she got committed, and she was a shell of her old self. I wrote some cards/letters and called after that but she would always hang up on me and never wrote back. I just couldn't take it going again in person, so I can understand how you feel. She'd told my brother (her guardian) that if she ever got out she'd want to live with me. The sadness and unreality of her saying that still bothers me, that she believed it was possible. I wouldn't have done it to be honest. The media called us for interviews and we kept saying no comment and then they stopped. But they did put a few reports on the news. I agree with you how hurtful it is with this. I'm sorry to hear that your brother has had this illness many years. I'm glad this board has helped you. Please keep us updated and take care.
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alone39
Inactive
Toyanne Hightower: Oct 17th, 1969-- Feb 26th, 2003
Posts: 15
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Post by alone39 on Mar 13, 2006 9:06:05 GMT -5
I can understand exactly where you are coming from. I feel as if I was played by both the defense and the prosecuters when it came to my son's trial. I truly believed going into the courtroom that what he had done was simply spur of the moment impulsive behavior on the part of someone I knew had mental health issues. The lawyers for him were under no obligation to tell me the details. The prosecution was not either. He surely didn't tell me everything he knew about it, and imagine my surprise when I found out the horrible details surrounding the event. That it had been planned out in advance. I know how hard this is for you. One thing I can tell you, and you may want to prepare yourself for, is there may be some things brought into the trial that you don't know about. I feel the prosecution saved this information from me (aside from the fact that they were not obligated in any way to tell me) for the effect it would have on me in the courtroom. The "shock and awe" of the situation, I feel, was one tactic they used to make my response a direct link to the jury-those people could look at me and see how devastated I was when all this came out. Try to be as prepared as you can be. It's going to be tough, I'm sure you already know that. Having to relive all the emotions you have been dealing with as it is played out in the courtroom can have as much, or more, impact on you as the original occurance. I don't know if anything I've said will help. But I'm thinking about you, and I hope this at least gives you some ideas about what you'll face when you get there.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 14, 2006 19:19:36 GMT -5
Dear Alone 39 & all:
You have verbalized so well my frustration with the "legal system." I truly feel that I have no rights as a victim anymore. I have told the police dept. and State's Attorney office that my brother is severely mentally ill, yet they ignored me and charged him with first degree, premeditated murder anyway. I have spoken to the judge at pre-trial hearings how the constant delays in my brothers case is hurting my and my family's grief recovery, but the judge just harshly admonished me by practically yelling at me that "we can't rush the wheels of justice." Since I'm not squarely on the prosecution's side, they refuse to tell me anything about my brother's case at all (the state attorney assigned to the case point blank told me that "I have no rights as a victim to be kept informed because he has 200 cases and can't baby sit me" and "he's not telling me anything because he doesn't want to give up his legal strategy." I get very little information from the defense attorney either, because he's hired to protect my brother's rights, and not my own. I also asked for a copy of the police report, but was told that since I am a witness, that I can't have access to it. Plus, now I am told that since I am a witness that I won't even be able to attend the trial to hear all the details first hand. (Not that I really was sure that I wanted to attend anyway, but now that it has been totally taken away from me, it just infuriates me more!) I hadn't even considered, as Alone39 has pointed out, that they are keeping things from me for the "shock value" in court...but it wouldn't surprise me at all now that I come to think about it. Thanks so much for the warning!! And they say that America has the greatest legal system in the world. Yeah, right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by dle7154 on Mar 15, 2006 0:56:31 GMT -5
drewsmon595
Let me just say, its late right now and I may not make much sense, but there is a lot of political pressure on prosecutors to not settle or plea insanity cases involving murder. That's especially true when theirs publicity. I tried and was shut down very early. I threatened not to show and was told they would get a court order and enforce it. State attorney's, prosecutors, etc are like many people regarding mental illness, they often don't understand it. I was on the stand for about 3 hours and the state attorney tried to create an image of my brother as having a history of violence when their was none. My brother had no record and had never harmed anyone until my mother. I don't know your circumstances and wouldn't presume to advise but I would assume they would try paint your brother in like manner.
I work in the legal system as well and its wheels grind slowly. His case is in the system and these attorney's don't share information and delays or the norm in many jurisdictions. I wasn't able to listen to testimony at all but you could ask if the proceedings are to be recorded by a court reporter and if so then transcribed. Its very expensive to pruchase yourseld, but one of the sides may order the transcript and after the case might share it. I do wish today that I knew more about the testimony to fill in the blanks.
Take Care
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 15, 2006 20:04:41 GMT -5
Dle7154:
I suspect you're right in your statement that the prosecution is going to try to paint my brother as violent. They have subpoenaed neighbors who aren't even close friends of my parents. I and my husband have also received subpoenas. My brother, like yours, never harmed anyone except for my father either...he's barely even has had a traffic ticket in his life! I like your idea of ordering a transcript, or having one shared with me. That was a brilliant suggestion (thanks!)
If you don't mind me asking, what's happened to your son? And if he is in prison, do you have any contact with him?
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Post by dle7154 on Mar 15, 2006 23:06:02 GMT -5
Drewsmon595 I may have misstated, this was not my son but my brother that murdered our mother in 2002. My brother was involved in a tragic accident about 20 years ago. He was responsible for the death of two teens while driving and we believe the guilt slowly ate away at him. He slipped into paranoia and schizophrenia. After homelessness and other circumstances he finally received help. It was our mother that took him in, got him on meds, (haldol) and over a 15 years period he actually improved and became in many ways is old self.
About 10 months prior to my mothers death he tried to switch meds. Haldol can have some serious side effects and they had caught up with him. The new meds just didn't work and we couldn't convince him to go back on haldol. At some point he would just lie and say he was back on the meds but we know now that he was probably off completely. One day he took a knife to kill his doctor and the doctor was off for the day. The next day he murdered our mother. His actions were precipitated by specific fearful delusions that he acted upon.
Regarding my contact with him, he used to call pretty frequently before his trial from jail and again after he was installed in the state mental hospital. The last time I spoke to him he told me he had more friends now in the facility then he ever had before. That call was over 6 months ago.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 17, 2006 6:45:33 GMT -5
Thanks, dle7154:
I'm sorry I misunderstood your situation. Your story sounds similar to mine. My brother, too, was sick with paranoid schizophrenia and wasn't on the right meds. My mom and dad took him in because he had nowhere else to go. They did everything they could to help him, and in the end he murdered my dad.
Did you take any legal action against the doctor who was prescribing the meds or treating him at the time of your mom's death? I looked into it, but was told it is extremely difficult to prove medical negligence or malpractice in cases involving mental health.
My brother's trial is set for April 18. I wish I could just run away from it all, but I can't. I cry alot due to the stress I'm feeling. I wish I could just be calm about it and say "let the chips fall where they may"...and I am trying to do that. But it just bothers me when I think that I'm going to be crying and speaking about things that are so painful for me in front of 12 strangers who will be determining my brother's fate. I wish my Dad were here. I could always count on him to help me during difficult times. When I need him the most, he's gone.
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Post by dle7154 on Mar 21, 2006 13:54:51 GMT -5
Drewsmon595 If I haven't expressed it before, I'm for sorry that you have lost your father. I'm sure you have had a difficult time since his death and it sounds like it won't be much easier the next couple of months. The trial of my brother was a difficult process for me and my sisters and the emotions that overcame me in court, in hindsight, surprised me. I'm not sure how you prepare yourself for it. I guess if I could have prepared myself better it would have been to brace myself for the first look at my brother. It was seeing him there, behind that desk, and the enormity of the situation that got to me. Fortunately I was able to regain my composure and testified for about 2 hours. I concentrated on the questions and I didn't elaborate on a questions unless I was specifically asked to do so, otherwise it was a yes or no.
As to legal options, I spoke to a few people and the general sense I got was that a case like mine was not looked upon favorably by most plaintiff law firms. Firms that pursue medical malpractice usually like cases that have a history of success, a paper trail so to speak. They would have to invest to much time and expense creating the legal justification so they don't bother taking these cases. They don't like gambles and they want cases they can settle before trial and ours didn't fit that model. Really who do you sue, the doctor/medical facility or do you challenge the pharmaceutical company that produces the drug. Make sure for yourself, your case is sure to be different and it may make sense to research it further.
Take Care
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 31, 2006 14:52:06 GMT -5
Just got a phone call from the state attorney's office. The trial has been postponed....AGAIN! I could just scream. This is like the 5th time the trial date has changed. I just want the trial to be over with. I just feel like someone's pulling off a band-aid really, really slow. Sorry, I just had to vent.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 2, 2006 6:52:50 GMT -5
I'm so sorry about this. What a mess. This delays any resolution you might get. I'm very sorry. Please keep us updated and take care.
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Post by mattsma on Apr 2, 2006 13:25:03 GMT -5
>:(hello drewsmom, I am so sorry that you are thrown back into the waiting game. I hope that things fall into place soon for you and your family. take care & b-safe deb
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Post by judi on Apr 5, 2006 14:42:50 GMT -5
drewsmom595, I'm sorry for your loss. This trial will be difficult and you will be in my thoughts. My nephew had to testify against his father for killing his mom, sister and trying to kill him, he was shot 4 times. He was 16 years old at the time of the trial.
The defense wanted to seek diminished capacity basically saying my ex-brother-in-law is just stupid. It was hard to sit in the courtroom hearing that he just wasn't smart because of all these things that happened in his life and he was an alcoholic. My family knows him we know he is just a mean person. My sister put up with years of abuse.
He got life without parole so we are grateful that there will be no chance of him ever getting out. He had threatened the lifes of my parents and nobody wanted him to ever be free someday.
Unfortunately our 'legal system' does like to have things for shock value.It has to frustrating that the police won't listen when you said your brother is mentally ill. After you have testified you may be able to sit in the courtroom then, that is if you want to. My nephew wasn't allowed in the courtroom until after his testimony.
Take care.
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Post by meme on Apr 5, 2006 23:10:45 GMT -5
To all: Please tell me where the murderers are living while awaiting all these trial postponements? Not at home on "House Arrest" (like mine) I hope!
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Post by judi on Apr 7, 2006 15:21:07 GMT -5
As for us, he was kept in the county jail till trial.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Apr 7, 2006 19:19:03 GMT -5
Hi everyone:
Thanks for your kind words. I have been given so much good advice that I really can't thank you enough. It really helps to hear from others who have travelled down similar roads, and can tell me what pot holes lie ahead.
To answer your question meme, my brother is in an overcrowded county jail, sleeping on a mat on the floor because there aren't enough beds. He has no hot water and isn't receiving any psychotropic medications whatsoever. He has deteriorated physically and emotionally to a point where I no longer recognize him. He is held on the medical wing with other psychotic inmates, one of whom routinely is so crazy that he tries to stab other inmates with pens and pencils. If the mental health care in prison is anything like the mental health care my brother receives in Pinellas County jail, I can tell you that it's basically non-existent. I've done research on the level of psychiatric care in FL prisons, and I can tell you it sucks. In some instances, I've read that there's one psychiatrist covering five prisons.
The dental care also sucks. My brother had a filling fall out of his tooth a month after he got there. It's now almost 3 years later, and he's still waiting to have that filling replaced. It's not like he's going to die, but it's a deep filling that causes pain when air or liquid comes into contact with it. There's one dentist for the entire jail. I've spoken with the nurse and she said that there's nothing she can do...there's people who are waiting longer to see a dentist than my brother.
Before this happened, I would've said, "well, they're prisoners and they deserve the crummy care we're giving them." But now that it's my own sick brother, I see things a little differently. I think that our jails and prisons should at least provide humane, appropriate care for those in need. But from what I've witnessed first hand, that's just not the case.
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