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Post by cthewig on Nov 18, 2007 14:19:14 GMT -5
I have been reading through the posts and I can’t really express to you how much I appreciate all of you for being here and sharing with me. Thank you. My brother strangled my Dad to death on 29 Aug 2007. I am generally confused about the situation since I often thought of my brother as a kindred spirit. I thought that I knew him since we were very close when we were growing up. I now realize that I don’t know him at all. I never did. I can’t conceive of his state of mind. How do you understand something so inconceivable?! I struggle with feelings of loyalty and betrayal. I just don’t know what to think of him. He is currently undergoing psyche evals. He will likely submit a plea of innocent for reason of insanity. I don’t want to believe that he could go free. I am generally confused about what God expects from me in this. My parents raised my brother and me in the church. We were missionaries. We are Christians. We are moral people….how did this happen to us?! My upbringing taught me to forgive. Jesus said, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy times seven.” I always translated this as we are to forgive infinitely.
Matthew 18:21-35 21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy times seven. 23"Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. 26"The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. 28"But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. 29"His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' 30"But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. 32"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. 35"This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
How can I ask God to forgive me and “cancel my debts” if I don’t forgive my brother. Since I have determined that I need to forgive my brother, I find myself trying to define forgiveness. I am not sure what forgiveness is. What do you think forgiveness is?
I believe that my brother’s act against my father was an act against God. My brother killed God’s creation. My brother will have to answer to God for it. I then begin to think that my brother took my father away from me. I am left cleaning up the mess, literally. I then think that he needs to ask me for forgiveness…and then I realize that it isn’t my place to forgive my brother. Only God can judge and forgive my brother. I can’t judge him. I can’t conceive of his state of mind. Only God knows my brother. So then I wonder what God expects of me? I tend to think that my brother owes me something. I think that I am better than he is. I start thinking that since I would never kill my father then I have the right to sit in judgment of my brother. But I don’t. I can’t. I am not qualified to judge him. I have no idea what he was thinking. I do not have the power to forgive him. Only God can forgive him for what he did to my Dad. I then think that perhaps my job is just to absolve my brother at least in my own mind from owing me anything. I have to decide for myself that I am not qualified to judge him. I am unqualified to cancel his debt to God. I don’t have the authority or power to do that. I must remove myself from the equation. God will deal with him. It is not my job to deal with him. I must absolve him of the debt that I perceive he owes me. I must know and believe that he doesn’t owe me anything. I must do that for myself.
My husband believes that forgiveness is canceling my brother’s debts and acting like it never happened. That is what God does, doesn’t He? I can’t forget though. I will never forget. I will not have a relationship with my brother ever again. I can’t…but does that mean that I don’t forgive him?
What do you think forgiveness is? If anyone has found forgiveness for their tormentors, will you please be so kind as to share with me what that forgiveness means to you?
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Post by taterfay on Nov 18, 2007 18:31:43 GMT -5
I am so sorry about your father. I can't even imagine the state of shock you must STILL find yourself in (because this happened to all of you pretty recently)...
To me forgiveness means not holding hatred for the murderer in my heart. It will never mean condoning it or pretending it didn't happen, though. I don't think any of us could ever forget...This is a good question, actually. I find it hard for me to define how I "forgive"..I need to think about this more. I'm not ready to completely forgive my sister's murderer yet and I think God would understand and respect that.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Nov 18, 2007 19:28:37 GMT -5
Dear cthewig:
When I read your post, I felt myself "rewinding" myself emotionally to four years ago, when my brother shot and killed my Dad on the day after Thanksgiving, 2003. For the longest time after my Dad was murdered, I felt such a confusing mix of feelings towards my brother, that they almost cancelled each other out. I didn't know how I felt because I felt anger and compassion, love and hatred, terror and familiarity all at the same time. At any point in time, one of those emotions would be stronger, so I felt different things on different days.
I, too, struggled for forgiveness and my strength in God was shaken a bit..because I didn't understand how He could allow such a thing to happen. It wasn't until I went to a counselor that he helped me understand that my brother, who is paranoid schizophrenic, wasn't totally responsible for his actions. I don't know if you brother has any mental illness, but it truly blunted a lot of my anger towards him...and that helped me take the first steps toward forgiveness. I'm not totally all the way there yet. I think, for me, forgiveness is not resenting or being angry with the person who wronged you. Forgiveness is accepting that what happened, happened and not allowing negative emotions tied to the act control your emotions and your life. For me, I knew that I needed to come to some form of forgiveness in order to move on with my life. It's not the right choice for everyone, but it was for me.
Your grief is still very fresh, and it is going to take time to process emotionally what has happened to you. I admire your strong faith in God, and I do believe that He doesn't give us more than what we can handle. I've come to accept that there is a reason for what has happened to you and me, although we may not truly understand it in this lifetime. I choose to live my life in a way that would make my Dad and God proud of me. And I don't think, for me, that holding hatred and bitterness in my heart is good for my soul. I know this sounds crazy, but sometimes I wonder if one of my life lessons that I'm supposed to learn from all of this is compassion and forgiveness. If so, I still have a long road ahead of me, but I'm at least taking steps toward it.
Time will tell if it's the right path for you to take, too. Good luck and God bless you!
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Post by cthewig on Nov 19, 2007 5:31:30 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind replies. Kindness is such a stabilizing force right now. Thank you for offering that to me.
Drewsmom595, As I mentioned previously, my brother is undergoing psyche evals. I am having a difficult time with that though. I can’t imagine that he could go free. I understand that our laws allow mentally ill patients to get away with murder but I am appalled at the absurdity of it!
I mean aren’t all murderers mentally ill?! Wouldn’t you have to be “mentally ill” to commit murder? Has there ever been a murderer who wasn’t “insane” at the time?!! Doesn’t murder mean insanity? Aren’t they the same thing? How can anyone say that one insane person is innocent while another insane person is guilty?
For the last two months, I have been leaning toward compassion for my brother because of his alleged illness. Now I find myself resisting that excuse. I don’t believe it is an excuse. My brother made choices. He chose to stop taking his medication. That choice led him to a state of defilement. His choice caused the result. He should be held responsible for his choice.
I look to the Bible to tell me what to do. Like you, drewsmom595, I keep finding that I must learn compassion and forgiveness. I must be humble when facing the monster. I must accept the unacceptable. I realize of course that I am not capable of that. So I have to look to Jesus. He humbled himself before Pontius Pilate. He allowed the Romans to annihilate him. Finally as he was dying, he said, “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.” Luke 23:34
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Post by drewsmom595 on Nov 19, 2007 6:51:32 GMT -5
cthewig:
I wondered the same myself...are all murderers mentally ill? I think the answer to that, unfortunately, is not always. I do think alot of murderers probably have something wrong in their brains, but there's also just really bad, evil people who know EXACTLY what they're doing. And I think therein lies the difference. If your mental illness prevents you from knowing right from wrong, OR is the actual cause of the murder (e.g., your sense of reality is distorted because you're paranoid schizophrenic) that is very different than if you're just mad as hell because your wife is leaving you, so you kill her.
The issue that I have is that if you truly are insane at the time of killing (either didn't know right from wrong, or the mental illness caused you to commit the crime), I don't like the current way our system in my state treats murderers. Either you're found innocent or guilty...if you're found innocent by reason of insanity, then you're a free man, although you probably will be committed to some form of mental treatment for a few months up to two years at the most!!
In my opinion, if you're that nuts that you took a life, then your freedom should be reigned in to protect society.
My brother, too, didn't stay on his medicine, but I found out from the counselor that I was seeing that it most paranoid schizophrenics don't stay on their medicine...as part of their illness. Their illness warps their mind in such a way that they don't believe they're crazy, they really believe their paranoid thoughts are happening to them. They don't believe they need medicine. It's all part of the viscious cycle of their disease. I don't know what illness your brother has, or even if he does indeed have an illness. But time will tell on both of those accounts, won't they?
For me, I looked to what my Dad would want for me as guide posts for how to live my life now. I know he wouldn't want this to ruin my life or turn me into a bitter, anger and sour person. The only way I could do that was to move on and start trying to forgive my brother.
In some ways, I think it's easier and harder to forgive a relative who commits murder. It's easier because there's still some measure of love there and a relationship there. But that's also what makes it harder. You start wondering about your entire relationship with that person. And then you feel guilty for even having contact with that person, as if it is an insult to the loved one who was murdered. It is all very complicated, and I unfortunately don't have all the answers. Not sure that I will.
I do know that turning to my faith was a salvation for me. And knowing that my Dad is in a better place, with joy and happiness, is also a relief to me.
I wish you only the best on this journey of grief and healing. Please let me know if I can help you in any way.
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Post by cthewig on Nov 19, 2007 9:19:41 GMT -5
Drewsmom595, I have also been trying to do what I believe that my Dad would want. My Dad always supported, loved, forgave, and provided for my brother. I am now confronted with the question of would my Dad still support, love, forgive, and provide for my brother in light of the fact that my brother took his life? My Dad served his son the best way he knew how and God demanded his life for it. What kind of example is that for me? I can just walk away afterall. Nobody would blame me. Isn’t that what my Dad would have done if he could?
Some members of my family believe that I have an obligation to support my brother while others believe that my brother negated my responsibility to him. I, like you, feel guilty for supporting him. I feel like I am betraying my Dad and myself by supporting my brother. On the other hand, I feel like I am betraying him and possibly God if I don’t.
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Post by Charlene on Nov 19, 2007 10:10:16 GMT -5
I am so sorry for this difficult situation you find yourself in. I cannot imagine how I would feel - I love my siblings and I love my parents.
This is the best article I have ever read about forgiveness.
When Forgiveness Is a Sin By Dennis Prager The bodies of the three teen-age girls shot dead last December by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before some of their schoolmates hung a sign announcing, "We forgive you, Mike!" They were referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the killer.
This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, many Christians have adopted the idea that they should forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents.
The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. Last August, for instance, the preacher at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that the duty of all Christians was to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber who murdered 168 Americans. "Can each of you look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and forgive him?" the Rev. John Miller asked. "I have, and I invite you to do the same."
Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed. And despite theological differences, Christianity and Judaism have served as the bedrock of American civilization. And I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.
This doctrine advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt others, millions of your fellow citizens will forgive you. It destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness. Even by God, forgiveness is contingent on the sinner repenting, and it can be given only by the one sinned against.
" And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him," reads Luke 17:3-4. "And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."
These days one often hears that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive, just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people. Presumably he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.
You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right, If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do, God and his forgiveness are unnecessary. We have substituted ourselves for God.
I host a talk-radio show, and when confronted with such arguments, some callers offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students. They were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Such self centered thinking masquerading as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life.
Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-every-one-everything doctrine: doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This is therapy masquerading as idealism: "I forgive you because I want to feel better."
Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that, the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 11:00:20 GMT -5
This article, unfortunately, promotes some of the MYTHS out there. It says NOWHERE in the Bible that forgiveness means that what the perpetrator did was GOOD! It says over and over how ALL people HAVE to be held accountable for their crimes, etc. FYI, it's NOT "over the past generation" that the belief that if you're a Christian you're to forgive. THAT was said 1st by Jesus Christ. And yes, He said in the Bible that your sins aren't forgiven unless YOU forgive. VERY unpopular teaching, especially in this time. When so many PRIDE THEMSELVES on hate and bitterness. Jesus never said for God to forgive OTHERS who did crucifixtions. Really? Then why is it He said the worst person can be saved? The author is taking this Scripture out of context, too, which is very popular these days. The teaching that the worst can be saved is all through the New Testament. Along with what happens to murderers who DON'T truly repent. I'm SO TIRED of ONLY the latter be quoted online. They quote what fits with THEIR VIEW, of course. Looking at it as a whole doesn't fit with the views of some. They don't want to DEAL WITH the whole. I'm WITH the article's author about "INSTANT" forgiveness. Anyone who's NOT an MVS has no complete understanding on how this is IMPOSSIBLE for many MVS. And for some it's not. I'm sick and tired of those who DO FORGIVE getting garbage for it. I have. But, it's how it's going to be for me as long as I speak out. It'll never shut me up. Also, the MVS who DON'T choose to forgive, that's THEIR BUSINESS, TOO! They shouldn't get garbage either. It took me a LOT of years to get to the forgiveness point. And I had to pray to do it. I have a strong feeling God understands if you're a Christian that you struggle with some of the teachings. I have and still do with some. What's very troubling in this article is the pressuring of people to forgive right off. The fact is when they do/don't is between EACH PERSON and God. Yes, Jesus said if you don't forgive you don't get forgiven. But, following this is up to each Christian on his/her own. Technically, the teaching can be stated, but no pressure/garbage should be involved. This just makes people more upset. I had to give up to God some things about my familys' case to keep my sanity. That was all I could figure out to do about a few things after working on them in counseling, etc. I DO agree with the author that this pressure to forgive right off is wrong. STATING the teaching is fine, but pressuring people, etc. is WRONG. This kind of mentality is equal to convert or be killed! Also wrong. The author is saying people are automatically forgiven? This contradicts Biblical teaching also. The forgiveness of God is between THAT person and God, not others. It's between the perpetrator and God. If there's forgiveness from the MVS, that's between him/her and God. People can forgive and the perpetrator doesn't even know it. Some MVS want the perpetrator to know he/she forgave. That's their freedom and right. Just as it's the freedom and right of those who don't want the perpetrator to know. Anyway, this is a complicated issues for all MVS. I think it's more complicated for inter-family MVS.
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Post by Janet-Beth's Mom on Nov 19, 2007 12:20:12 GMT -5
Drewsmom595, I have also been trying to do what I believe that my Dad would want. My Dad always supported, loved, forgave, and provided for my brother. I am now confronted with the question of would my Dad still support, love, forgive, and provide for my brother in light of the fact that my brother took his life? My Dad served his son the best way he knew how and God demanded his life for it. What kind of example is that for me? I can just walk away afterall. Nobody would blame me. Isn’t that what my Dad would have done if he could? Some members of my family believe that I have an obligation to support my brother while others believe that my brother negated my responsibility to him. I, like you, feel guilty for supporting him. I feel like I am betraying my Dad and myself by supporting my brother. On the other hand, I feel like I am betraying him and possibly God if I don’t. I am so sorry you are so torn by this. As if learning to live with a loved one having been murdered is not pressure and agony enough, there are people pushing you that you must 'feel' a certain way about it? I am so sorry; that is so wrong of them to tell you how you must feel. And I don't personally believe God demanded your father's life. There is ample evidence in the Bible that God abhors murder, and that it is the murderer of their own free will that does that. With your not knowing if your brother even knew what he was really doing, how does anyone expect you to be able to decide what only God can look into his heart and know? I can't understand that either.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 12:42:28 GMT -5
Dear cthewing, I'm so sorry about your Dad. Yes, you've found out that we DON'T know all that's in the minds of our loved 1's! As far as understanding goes, we humans can only understand so much. I HOPE in the afterlife we'll get ALL the answers about our tragedies! As far as conflicting feelings go, I think all inter-family MVS have them. The murders in my family were 17 years ago and I still have conflicting feelings. I still love Mom but will always hate what she did. I felt hate for her when she was alive and wished she'd die many times. I didn't want her to get death penalty, but wished she'd die naturally. Please don't be hard on yourself. You're going through the hardest time and that's the 1st few months/years. A big reason these things happen, as Janet said, is the abuse of free will. Your brother didn't take his medication and a tragedy came from that wrong action of his. What I STILL struggle with, though, is the ultimate WHY? Why does God intervene in some things and not others? Ie., why are some people saved from murder (ie., live through an attack) and others don't? I hope to have these questions answered in the afterlife. I just had to give this question up to God a while back for my own sanity. As far as insanity pleas go, I've read online they're used in 2% or less of murder cases. There's the myth out there that ALL murderers are pleading insanity and then going free. Not true. The perpetrator in my familys' case (my Mother) was found incompetent to be tried. She had a mental illness that she refused to treat, ie., when she DID get treatment, she didn't stick with it. She also was being abused by her Mother and didn't work on resolving that either. So, her actions directly lead to what she did. You have the same beliefs as me about forgiveness and it took me a lot of years to forgive Mom. I agree with Taterfay's definition of forgiveness. I feel mostly sadness when thinking about Mom now. Because she destroyed herself and others because of her own actions and NON-actions (such as refusing to get treatment and stick with it). It's YOUR choice what relationship you have with your brother. Just as your choice on forgiveness is. I'm in agreement with you that Jesus said we have to forgive to have our own sins forgiven. However, I also believe He understands that we've literally been put into a hell by the actions of our loved 1 and that we have a lot to deal with. I had to pray for help to forgive years after the murders. Something that really helped with all this with church counseling. It covered the spiritual aspects of it all that weren't covered in regular counseling. Please be easy on yourself. Your forgiveness of your brother is between you and God. As is what relationship you have with him. I know the horror of what you've been going through. Please keep close to God. A big mistake I made was turning away from Him. What's strange is I never quit believing. When I turned away, my life went down. Nothing really good came of turning away. He understands our anger, fear, rage and struggles. I learned this after I turned back to Him when I quit drinking. Again, I'm so sorry about all that's happened to you. Know that we're here for you. Take care.
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Post by Janet-Beth's Mom on Nov 19, 2007 12:43:19 GMT -5
This article, unfortunately, promotes some of the MYTHS out there. It says NOWHERE in the Bible that forgiveness means that what the perpetrator did was GOOD! It says over and over how ALL people HAVE to be held accountable for their crimes, etc. FYI, it's NOT "over the past generation" that the belief that if you're a Christian you're to forgive. THAT was said 1st by Jesus Christ. And yes, He said in the Bible that your sins aren't forgiven unless YOU forgive. VERY unpopular teaching, especially in this time. When so many PRIDE THEMSELVES on hate and bitterness. Jesus never said for God to forgive OTHERS who did crucifixtions. Really? Then why is it He said the worst person can be saved? The author is taking this Scripture out of context, too, which is very popular these days. The teaching that the worst can be saved is all through the New Testament. Along with what happens to murderers who DON'T truly repent. I'm SO TIRED of ONLY the latter be quoted online. They quote what fits with THEIR VIEW, of course. Looking at it as a whole doesn't fit with the views of some. They don't want to DEAL WITH the whole. I'm WITH the article's author about "INSTANT" forgiveness. Anyone who's NOT an MVS has no complete understanding on how this is IMPOSSIBLE for many MVS. And for some it's not. I'm sick and tired of those who DO FORGIVE getting garbage for it. I have. But, it's how it's going to be for me as long as I speak out. It'll never shut me up. Also, the MVS who DON'T choose to forgive, that's THEIR BUSINESS, TOO! They shouldn't get garbage either. It took me a LOT of years to get to the forgiveness point. And I had to pray to do it. I have a strong feeling God understands if you're a Christian that you struggle with some of the teachings. I have and still do with some. What's very troubling in this article is the pressuring of people to forgive right off. The fact is when they do/don't is between EACH PERSON and God. Yes, Jesus said if you don't forgive you don't get forgiven. But, following this is up to each Christian on his/her own. Technically, the teaching can be stated, but no pressure/garbage should be involved. This just makes people more upset. I had to give up to God some things about my familys' case to keep my sanity. That was all I could figure out to do about a few things after working on them in counseling, etc. I DO agree with the author that this pressure to forgive right off is wrong. STATING the teaching is fine, but pressuring people, etc. is WRONG. This kind of mentality is equal to convert or be killed! Also wrong. The author is saying people are automatically forgiven? This contradicts Biblical teaching also. The forgiveness of God is between THAT person and God, not others. It's between the perpetrator and God. If there's forgiveness from the MVS, that's between him/her and God. People can forgive and the perpetrator doesn't even know it. Some MVS want the perpetrator to know he/she forgave. That's their freedom and right. Just as it's the freedom and right of those who don't want the perpetrator to know. Anyway, this is a complicated issues for all MVS. I think it's more complicated for inter-family MVS. I think it's a very good article pumpkin. Some people do pressure us to forgive automatically, and not all Christian churches teach that is what is meant in the Bible. Everything in the article jives with what I have spoken about with a pastor from my own church. The bible does state " And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him," reads Luke 17:3-4. "And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him." So how is that taken out of context? It is explicit instruction on when we are required to forgive. Not to forgive people who aren't even sorry. That is no myth to at least some of us. It's not even a myth to you. You've said many times that you knew your mom was sorry. Most of us never hear that. I've never seen or heard it. Many of us never can hear it because they don't even know who did it. The author did not say that people should be automatically forgiven. The author gives examples of times when some have given that automatic forgiveness, and simply states why he thinks that is wrong. I was relieved the first time I read this article years ago. And finally found the courage and the words to be able to tell some who were pushing me to forgive exactly how wrong they were to do that to me. And I am grateful that Charlene posted this here to let cthewig know that there are different viewpoints that support that path too. That not everyone wants to hurt us so horribly and tell us we must choose some supposedly 'higher path' (in their eyes but not our own) that may not apply to us at all. That one path is better than the other is what is mythical in my view. To me the best path is the one that helps the individual person, and only they can decide that.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 13:05:32 GMT -5
How about an article that gives ANOTHER perspective? Different from this 1? Actually, that would be a REFRESHING CHANGE! How about an article that's not about instant forgiveness? Why not an article that's not about instant forgiveness, but about people who forgave after giving it a lot of thought? Equal time is deserved for both views.
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Post by Janet-Beth's Mom on Nov 19, 2007 13:10:51 GMT -5
How about an article that gives ANOTHER perspective? Different from this 1? Actually, that would be a REFRESHING CHANGE! How about an article that's not about instant forgiveness? Why not an article that's not about instant forgiveness, but about people who forgave after giving it a lot of thought? Equal time is deserved for both views. Why don't you start your own thread if that is what you want? This article seemed to me to be addressing what at least some people are asking chtewig to do, from what I read. It was certainly appropriate for me when I needed some relief from those who were pushing for that from me at least. And then if there is debate, it could be outside of cthewig's thread as well. Maybe that would be better.
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Post by Charlene on Nov 19, 2007 15:22:26 GMT -5
I completely disagree with your assessment of this article. In fact, I think it is one of the extremely rare articles you can find about forgiveness that does not put a huge amount of pressure on people to forgive murder. It makes me sick how some people will make an MVS feel like dirt if they do not want to forgive the murderer. I think "getting garbage" regarding forgiveness is much more likely for those who do not wish to forgive than it is for those who do. In my opinion, this article provides a very refreshing viewpoint on the whole topic that can be extremely helpful to someone who is caught between their own true feelings and the popular and "politically correct" notion that they must forgive in order to be a "good" Christian or simply a good person. And yes, you're right, I'm not an MVS. However, I certainly think that someone who is not an MVS can offer some perspective on these issues. If my perspective does not help you, that is fine and you can disregard, but there are likely to be people that do find it to be useful and that is why I occasionally post here, rather than just administer the board. This article, unfortunately, promotes some of the MYTHS out there. It says NOWHERE in the Bible that forgiveness means that what the perpetrator did was GOOD! It says over and over how ALL people HAVE to be held accountable for their crimes, etc. FYI, it's NOT "over the past generation" that the belief that if you're a Christian you're to forgive. THAT was said 1st by Jesus Christ. And yes, He said in the Bible that your sins aren't forgiven unless YOU forgive. VERY unpopular teaching, especially in this time. When so many PRIDE THEMSELVES on hate and bitterness. Jesus never said for God to forgive OTHERS who did crucifixtions. Really? Then why is it He said the worst person can be saved? The author is taking this Scripture out of context, too, which is very popular these days. The teaching that the worst can be saved is all through the New Testament. Along with what happens to murderers who DON'T truly repent. I'm SO TIRED of ONLY the latter be quoted online. They quote what fits with THEIR VIEW, of course. Looking at it as a whole doesn't fit with the views of some. They don't want to DEAL WITH the whole. I'm WITH the article's author about "INSTANT" forgiveness. Anyone who's NOT an MVS has no complete understanding on how this is IMPOSSIBLE for many MVS. And for some it's not. I'm sick and tired of those who DO FORGIVE getting garbage for it. I have. But, it's how it's going to be for me as long as I speak out. It'll never shut me up. Also, the MVS who DON'T choose to forgive, that's THEIR BUSINESS, TOO! They shouldn't get garbage either. It took me a LOT of years to get to the forgiveness point. And I had to pray to do it. I have a strong feeling God understands if you're a Christian that you struggle with some of the teachings. I have and still do with some. What's very troubling in this article is the pressuring of people to forgive right off. The fact is when they do/don't is between EACH PERSON and God. Yes, Jesus said if you don't forgive you don't get forgiven. But, following this is up to each Christian on his/her own. Technically, the teaching can be stated, but no pressure/garbage should be involved. This just makes people more upset. I had to give up to God some things about my familys' case to keep my sanity. That was all I could figure out to do about a few things after working on them in counseling, etc. I DO agree with the author that this pressure to forgive right off is wrong. STATING the teaching is fine, but pressuring people, etc. is WRONG. This kind of mentality is equal to convert or be killed! Also wrong. The author is saying people are automatically forgiven? This contradicts Biblical teaching also. The forgiveness of God is between THAT person and God, not others. It's between the perpetrator and God. If there's forgiveness from the MVS, that's between him/her and God. People can forgive and the perpetrator doesn't even know it. Some MVS want the perpetrator to know he/she forgave. That's their freedom and right. Just as it's the freedom and right of those who don't want the perpetrator to know. Anyway, this is a complicated issues for all MVS. I think it's more complicated for inter-family MVS.
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Post by cthewig on Nov 19, 2007 15:23:34 GMT -5
I appreciate all of your comments. I have to admit that I do feel pressure to forgive my brother. I didn’t realize it though until now. I guess that I tend to see how frail life is now. I have a keener sense of my own mortality. I want to hurry up and find some kind of resolution lest I die tomorrow and don’t have the chance to forgive. I don’t want to be found accountable to God for unforgiveness.
Your posts confirmed for me that I can’t forgive my brother for what he did to my Dad. Only God can forgive him for that now. I am just struggling to understand what my responsibility is in all of this. I didn’t ask for this. I didn’t do anything to cause it but yet I feel like I have to react. I feel like I have some kind of responsibility here but I just don’t know what that is. I feel helpless in that I can’t fix this. It’s been done and there is nothing that I can do about it. I keep thinking that I have to react in some righteous and extraordinary way that will somehow make everything okay. I guess that I thought that my forgiveness would dispel the darkness of this situation.
It just seems futile now. I just have to accept the things that I cannot change. I can’t be some kind of saving grace. I don't have to be.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 18:38:35 GMT -5
This article, unfortunately, promotes some of the MYTHS out there. It says NOWHERE in the Bible that forgiveness means that what the perpetrator did was GOOD! It says over and over how ALL people HAVE to be held accountable for their crimes, etc. FYI, it's NOT "over the past generation" that the belief that if you're a Christian you're to forgive. THAT was said 1st by Jesus Christ. And yes, He said in the Bible that your sins aren't forgiven unless YOU forgive. VERY unpopular teaching, especially in this time. When so many PRIDE THEMSELVES on hate and bitterness. Jesus never said for God to forgive OTHERS who did crucifixtions. Really? Then why is it He said the worst person can be saved? The author is taking this Scripture out of context, too, which is very popular these days. The teaching that the worst can be saved is all through the New Testament. Along with what happens to murderers who DON'T truly repent. I'm SO TIRED of ONLY the latter be quoted online. They quote what fits with THEIR VIEW, of course. Looking at it as a whole doesn't fit with the views of some. They don't want to DEAL WITH the whole. I'm WITH the article's author about "INSTANT" forgiveness. Anyone who's NOT an MVS has no complete understanding on how this is IMPOSSIBLE for many MVS. And for some it's not. I'm sick and tired of those who DO FORGIVE getting garbage for it. I have. But, it's how it's going to be for me as long as I speak out. It'll never shut me up. Also, the MVS who DON'T choose to forgive, that's THEIR BUSINESS, TOO! They shouldn't get garbage either. It took me a LOT of years to get to the forgiveness point. And I had to pray to do it. I have a strong feeling God understands if you're a Christian that you struggle with some of the teachings. I have and still do with some. What's very troubling in this article is the pressuring of people to forgive right off. The fact is when they do/don't is between EACH PERSON and God. Yes, Jesus said if you don't forgive you don't get forgiven. But, following this is up to each Christian on his/her own. Technically, the teaching can be stated, but no pressure/garbage should be involved. This just makes people more upset. I had to give up to God some things about my familys' case to keep my sanity. That was all I could figure out to do about a few things after working on them in counseling, etc. I DO agree with the author that this pressure to forgive right off is wrong. STATING the teaching is fine, but pressuring people, etc. is WRONG. This kind of mentality is equal to convert or be killed! Also wrong. The author is saying people are automatically forgiven? This contradicts Biblical teaching also. The forgiveness of God is between THAT person and God, not others. It's between the perpetrator and God. If there's forgiveness from the MVS, that's between him/her and God. People can forgive and the perpetrator doesn't even know it. Some MVS want the perpetrator to know he/she forgave. That's their freedom and right. Just as it's the freedom and right of those who don't want the perpetrator to know. Anyway, this is a complicated issues for all MVS. I think it's more complicated for inter-family MVS. I think it's a very good article pumpkin. Some people do pressure us to forgive automatically, and not all Christian churches teach that is what is meant in the Bible. Everything in the article jives with what I have spoken about with a pastor from my own church. The bible does state " And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him," reads Luke 17:3-4. "And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him." My reply: I'm NOT saying the article is of poor quality. I can see it's of high quality. I think it does, though, reinforce some information out there that ISN'T Biblical. Such as the "past generation" is the 1 that came up with the teaching that you have to forgive to be forgiven. It came up SEVERAL generations ago. Please note Matthew 6:14-15: For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15: but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. So how is that taken out of context? It is explicit instruction on when we are required to forgive. Not to forgive people who aren't even sorry. That is no myth to at least some of us. It's not even a myth to you. You've said many times that you knew your mom was sorry. My reply: Yes, I knew she was sorry from her facial expressions, manner, body language, etc. And there was 1 letter she wrote where she said something like "my God what have I done"? It's my belief to forgive those who aren't even sorry. This is my thing and I'm not saying everyone has to do that. I also believe in never giving up on someone, even someone who's abused us. My reply: yes, IF the person truly repents to you, yes, you're told to forgive. If my fiance and I didn't follow this, we wouldn't be together! He's beared with me through a lot of healing time. And I have with him, too, with his disabilities, etc. However, if a person keeps abusing you and NEVER repents or changes, you have to remove yourself from that person. It doesn't mean you GIVE UP HOPE for them. Or you can give up hope. It's my choice not to. You can always pray for them at a distance. From Matthew 18: "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16: But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. What I meant by taking out of context is NOT mentioning these other 2 teachings that are directly linked to the 70 times 7 1 as far as covering the issue of forgiveness goes.
Most of us never hear that. I've never seen or heard it. Many of us never can hear it because they don't even know who did it.
The author did not say that people should be automatically forgiven. The author gives examples of times when some have given that automatic forgiveness, and simply states why he thinks that is wrong.
My reply: some of us believe in forgiveness even for those who aren't sorry, etc. I'm 1 of them. However, it doesn't mean I'll keep taking their abuse. I got pressured by a friend right after the murders to forgive Mom. It was too soon. I KNOW she meant well and I'm glad I stayed calm when she was telling me about it. It just wasn't time yet for me. So, I've experienced it, too.
I was relieved the first time I read this article years ago. And finally found the courage and the words to be able to tell some who were pushing me to forgive exactly how wrong they were to do that to me. And I am grateful that Charlene posted this here to let cthewig know that there are different viewpoints that support that path too. That not everyone wants to hurt us so horribly and tell us we must choose some supposedly 'higher path' (in their eyes but not our own) that may not apply to us at all. That one path is better than the other is what is mythical in my view. To me the best path is the one that helps the individual person, and only they can decide that.
I'm glad this article helped you. That's great. I'm sorry you were pushed by people. That was wrong. It's also wrong for those who DO forgive to have that choice insulted. And I don't have anything against posting it. I think, though, the OTHER side should be covered, too. Not talking about both sides happens too much.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 18:43:54 GMT -5
How about an article that gives ANOTHER perspective? Different from this 1? Actually, that would be a REFRESHING CHANGE! How about an article that's not about instant forgiveness? Why not an article that's not about instant forgiveness, but about people who forgave after giving it a lot of thought? Equal time is deserved for both views. Why don't you start your own thread if that is what you want? This article seemed to me to be addressing what at least some people are asking chtewig to do, from what I read. It was certainly appropriate for me when I needed some relief from those who were pushing for that from me at least. And then if there is debate, it could be outside of cthewig's thread as well. Maybe that would be better. Dear Janet, you read my mind! I've found an article and will post it. Yes, I agree on putting it outside this thread and I will.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 19, 2007 18:55:47 GMT -5
I completely disagree with your assessment of this article. In fact, I think it is one of the extremely rare articles you can find about forgiveness that does not put a huge amount of pressure on people to forgive murder. My reply: I haven't sought out this kind of article to be honest. So I honestly don't know the quantity out there that are for pressuring people, those that aren't, etc. This article IS of high quality. And I don't have a problem with posting it. I just think other views on forgiveness deserve equal time. It makes me sick how some people will make an MVS feel like dirt if they do not want to forgive the murderer. I think "getting garbage" regarding forgiveness is much more likely for those who do not wish to forgive than it is for those who do. My reply: it makes me sick, too. NO ONE should get garbage if he/she forgives or not. I've said that repeatedly on boards. In my own experience, I've gotten grief FOR forgiving. This doesn't mean that my experience applies to all, obviously. I've also gotten kind responses. In my opinion, this article provides a very refreshing viewpoint on the whole topic that can be extremely helpful to someone who is caught between their own true feelings and the popular and "politically correct" notion that they must forgive in order to be a "good" Christian or simply a good person. My reply: There's also the popular entertainment in which revenge is seen as STRENGTH (restraint is seen as being for wimps), etc. That forgiveness is popular is news to me. Maybe because I never saw it practiced consistenly until I was in my late teens, and that was from people outside my family and friends. I had an overly sheltered upbringing may be why I didn't see it until then. And yes, you're right, I'm not an MVS. However, I certainly think that someone who is not an MVS can offer some perspective on these issues. If my perspective does not help you, that is fine and you can disregard, but there are likely to be people that do find it to be useful and that is why I occasionally post here, rather than just administer the board. My reply: I've never said a person who's not a MVS can't offer information, perspective, etc. I said that people who aren't a MVS don't have full understanding of what we go through in some ways. I know that different perspectives can help. I have no objection to this article being posted. I was pointing out some wrong information in it, but that doesn't automatically mean it's totally worthless and shouldn't be posted. This article, unfortunately, promotes some of the MYTHS out there. It says NOWHERE in the Bible that forgiveness means that what the perpetrator did was GOOD! It says over and over how ALL people HAVE to be held accountable for their crimes, etc. FYI, it's NOT "over the past generation" that the belief that if you're a Christian you're to forgive. THAT was said 1st by Jesus Christ. And yes, He said in the Bible that your sins aren't forgiven unless YOU forgive. VERY unpopular teaching, especially in this time. When so many PRIDE THEMSELVES on hate and bitterness. Jesus never said for God to forgive OTHERS who did crucifixtions. Really? Then why is it He said the worst person can be saved? The author is taking this Scripture out of context, too, which is very popular these days. The teaching that the worst can be saved is all through the New Testament. Along with what happens to murderers who DON'T truly repent. I'm SO TIRED of ONLY the latter be quoted online. They quote what fits with THEIR VIEW, of course. Looking at it as a whole doesn't fit with the views of some. They don't want to DEAL WITH the whole. I'm WITH the article's author about "INSTANT" forgiveness. Anyone who's NOT an MVS has no complete understanding on how this is IMPOSSIBLE for many MVS. And for some it's not. I'm sick and tired of those who DO FORGIVE getting garbage for it. I have. But, it's how it's going to be for me as long as I speak out. It'll never shut me up. Also, the MVS who DON'T choose to forgive, that's THEIR BUSINESS, TOO! They shouldn't get garbage either. It took me a LOT of years to get to the forgiveness point. And I had to pray to do it. I have a strong feeling God understands if you're a Christian that you struggle with some of the teachings. I have and still do with some. What's very troubling in this article is the pressuring of people to forgive right off. The fact is when they do/don't is between EACH PERSON and God. Yes, Jesus said if you don't forgive you don't get forgiven. But, following this is up to each Christian on his/her own. Technically, the teaching can be stated, but no pressure/garbage should be involved. This just makes people more upset. I had to give up to God some things about my familys' case to keep my sanity. That was all I could figure out to do about a few things after working on them in counseling, etc. I DO agree with the author that this pressure to forgive right off is wrong. STATING the teaching is fine, but pressuring people, etc. is WRONG. This kind of mentality is equal to convert or be killed! Also wrong. The author is saying people are automatically forgiven? This contradicts Biblical teaching also. The forgiveness of God is between THAT person and God, not others. It's between the perpetrator and God. If there's forgiveness from the MVS, that's between him/her and God. People can forgive and the perpetrator doesn't even know it. Some MVS want the perpetrator to know he/she forgave. That's their freedom and right. Just as it's the freedom and right of those who don't want the perpetrator to know. Anyway, this is a complicated issues for all MVS. I think it's more complicated for inter-family MVS.
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Post by tamècasmom on Nov 20, 2007 8:35:05 GMT -5
Cthewig,
I found this verse awhile back and posted it on this site after reading your posts and reading your love for God I thought it best to post this again for you.
I do not know who murdered my daughter so I do not know who to forgive, I can tell you that I have no hate in my body, mind and soul for the person who murdered my beloved daughter. My prayer is the murderer is caught, it is very hard to have to live with the unknown along with the loss of a loved one to the murderer's hand.
"Lord,
You have done wonderful things for me in this life. You have told me to do many things for you, and I happily obeyed. Today, you have told me to forgive. I am sad, Lord, because I cannot. I don't know how. It is not fair Lord. I didn't deserve these wrongs that were done against me and I shouldn't have to forgive As perfect as your way is Lord, this one thing I cannot do, for I don't know how to forgive. My anger is so deep Lord, I fear I may not hear you, but I pray that you teach me to do this one thing I cannot do - Teach me To Forgive."
As he knelt there in the quiet shade of that old oak tree, he felt something fall onto his shoulder. He opened his eyes. Out of the corner of one eye, he saw something red on his shirt.
He could not turn to see what it was because where the oak tree had been was a large square piece of wood in the ground. He raised his head and saw two feet held to the wood with a large spike through them.
He raised his head more, and tears came to his eyes as he saw Jesus hanging on a cross. He saw spikes in His hands, a gash in His side, a torn and battered body, deep thorns sunk into His head. Finally he saw the suffering and pain on His precious face. As their eyes met, the man's tears turned to sobbing, and Jesus began to speak.
"Have you ever told a lie?" He asked.
The man answered, "Yes, Lord."
"Have you ever been given too much change and kept it?"
The man answered, "Yes. Lord." And the man sobbed more and more.
"Have you ever taken something from work that wasn't yours?" Jesus asked.
And the man answered, "Yes, Lord."
"Have you ever sworn, using my Father's name in vain?"
The man, crying now, answered, "Yes, Lord."
As Jesus asked many more times, "Have you ever . . .?" the man's crying became uncontrollable, for he could only answer, "Yes, Lord."
Then Jesus turned His head from one side to the other, and the man felt something fall on his other shoulder. He looked and saw that it was the blood of Jesus. When he looked back up, his eyes met those of Jesus, and there was a look of love the man had never seen or known before.
Jesus said, "I didn't deserve this either, but I forgive you."
It may be hard to see how you're going to get through something, but when you look back in life, you realize how true this statement is.
Read the following first line slowly and let it sink in.
If God brings you to it - He will bring you through it. Lord I love You and I need You, come into my heart, today. For without You I can do nothing. Author unknown
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Nov 20, 2007 17:54:56 GMT -5
Dear tamecasmom, thanks for sharing this again. It's beautiful.
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Post by tamècasmom on Nov 20, 2007 20:28:24 GMT -5
Dear pumpkin, You and I have always agreed when it comes to forgiving. I am glad you are here your support was important when I first came to this site and has continued. Thanks for being there for me and all the other MVS who came after you. I also appreciate that you are steadfast in your beliefs, especially when it comes to forgiveness. I know as far as I am concerned since my daughter's murder sadness has changed my body and not for the good. I would hate to imagine what my body would go through if I always had an under-layer of ugly emotions waiting to rise to the top. Sadness has done enough to my physical and mental health I refuse to add more by constantly having an under-layer of hate which will not allow me to forgive. Every MVS is a different person and God gave each of us choices and my choice is to forgive. Right now I do not know who I am forgiving, at the same time I refuse to judge other MVS for their choice because only they have to live with their choice, as I live with mine. One more thing.........I MISS MY BELOVED TAMECA
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toniann
Regular
Just a lil redneck
Posts: 384
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Post by toniann on Nov 21, 2007 22:53:49 GMT -5
OOOh tamecasmom!! We are no strangers YOU AND ME! WE know the facts and are aware of the pain!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Forgiveness/ Thats another word for healing!!!!!Sammy Killed My Jessica....He was only a Baby himself and then killed himself!!!! Forgiveness is easy for me ( thank God!) It would not be so easy for me in your shoes!!!!! I would not rest until the debt was paid....You have my respects and admiration............God Bless us all! oxoxoxo toni
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toniann
Regular
Just a lil redneck
Posts: 384
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Post by toniann on Nov 21, 2007 22:54:38 GMT -5
I MISS MY BELOVED JESSICA!!!!!!!
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Post by tamècasmom on Nov 23, 2007 10:50:44 GMT -5
Toni,
Thanks for the compliment but all glory goes to God he has blessed me with the ability to forgive and I thank the Lord often for this ability.
The person who murdered my daughter has to answer to God because he not only took my daughter but he also took a child of God's my daughter was a Christian who loved the LORD.
Toni, in my sadness and loneliness and grief believe it or not I still thank the LORD. I thank him for not letting the murderer take my granddaughter when he murdered her mother. From what I have read most times murderer's kill everyone in the home so I feel blessed that I still have my granddaughter and her siblings. So instead of constantly thinking of my loss I think of my blessings and because of this I am able to forgive.
Toni, hope your day is going well I have pray for the LORD to bring you some peace today because I know how much you miss your beloved daughter Jessica and holiday's are not easy for us MVS.
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Post by ani on Nov 24, 2007 19:03:08 GMT -5
I am so sorry for this difficult situation you find yourself in. I cannot imagine how I would feel - I love my siblings and I love my parents. This is the best article I have ever read about forgiveness. When Forgiveness Is a Sin By Dennis Prager The bodies of the three teen-age girls shot dead last December by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before some of their schoolmates hung a sign announcing, "We forgive you, Mike!" They were referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the killer. This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, many Christians have adopted the idea that they should forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents. The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. Last August, for instance, the preacher at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that the duty of all Christians was to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber who murdered 168 Americans. "Can each of you look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and forgive him?" the Rev. John Miller asked. "I have, and I invite you to do the same." Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed. And despite theological differences, Christianity and Judaism have served as the bedrock of American civilization. And I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness. This doctrine advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt others, millions of your fellow citizens will forgive you. It destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness. Even by God, forgiveness is contingent on the sinner repenting, and it can be given only by the one sinned against. " And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him," reads Luke 17:3-4. "And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him." These days one often hears that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive, just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people. Presumably he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others. You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right, If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do, God and his forgiveness are unnecessary. We have substituted ourselves for God. I host a talk-radio show, and when confronted with such arguments, some callers offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students. They were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Such self centered thinking masquerading as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life. Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-every-one-everything doctrine: doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This is therapy masquerading as idealism: "I forgive you because I want to feel better." Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that, the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help? Charlene, I absolutely loved that article. I feel that the author was trying to say that forgiveness is an act that requires thought AND requires action on the part of the person who hurt those forgiving. I really did not think that he was misrepresenting or saying that those who do forgive are wrong OR that they did not put thought into their forgiveness. Your perspective is refreshing and I know that you have helped everyone here, including myself. I feel that many people here can count on you to at least try to understand, if not fully "get them". Thank you Charlene.
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Post by acavana on Nov 25, 2007 10:50:09 GMT -5
I would first like to say that I skipped many of the answers before this post... I don't like to get into or read others interpretations of religion, articles, thoughts, religious feelings, etc. It just brings out alot of hostility and heart felt emotion and debate. My father said to me a long time ago to humble yourself to believe that none of us can know the absolute facts when it comes to religion, and that is where I stand in my heart. It all has so much to do with interpretation. With that being said... forgiveness. My only thoughts to add are how I have seen this term since Michelle's murder. Many of us are in the position of knowing both the murderer and the victim, others have the even deeper connection of a blood relation to both. That I can't even imagine. It is easy for people to ask me if I have forgiven ST for killing Michelle, especially if they have not been touched so closely by a murder. All I can say is this. If I had to matter of factly say if I have or not I think that the answer is no at this point. However, I do not hold anger in my heart attached to him specifically. I am angry don't get me wrong. I am angry at what he did, I am angry at no walking away. I have had a certain amount of peace in deciding early on that I would not allow anyone to pressure me to forgive, nor would I pressure myself. "Normal" people can't even fathom the elevation of emotion that we all feel every day of our lives following a murder. There is no timeline for healing, anger, forgiveness, any of it... You have a long time to sort it all out. Especially in the beginning of your grief. And believe me, I am still right in that category, because we haven't even hit two years yet. I do like your thought that the act was againt god, and that made me think that it may not even be my place to feel the pressure to forgive. I don't know if any of this helps or not... as we all know, tomorrow is a different day, I may read it over and think something different. Such is the roller coster of being a MVS.
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Post by friends4ever on Nov 29, 2007 3:08:58 GMT -5
cthewig,
I really don't like seeing that you feel that forgiveness is not yours, I believe that in order for us to move on, either here in life or in our afterlife, that somehow we need to find forgiveness. If you can not find forgiveness I don't believe you can truely find yourself.
I am sorry for the loss of both your father and your brother, I know you brother is still living but I know all too well the loss that follows when your brother kills a loved one. When something like this happens we all go through grief, not only for the murdered but also the murderer. I was very close to my brother, in fact, I idolized him when I was a child and his opinion was the only one who had pull over my decisions. After he killed Becky, his wife, my best friend, I went through the hardest time in my life. I not only had to deal with finding her, but also testifying to the truth on the witness stand, and losing my family for several years, this in addition to losing my self.
It took me 6 years for my family to come around and take the step towards reconsiliation with me, 10 years for them to finally hear from his mouth that he indeed was the person to take Becky's life and almost 12 years for me to to find forgiveness and myself. For a long time forgiveness was something I could not comprehend, not when it came to my brother.
Not every killer is insane, most people who plead insanity and are leagally insane do not "get off" as people believe. They normally spend the rest of their lives in a mental institution locked in one small area and at this point they are forced to take their meds, if they get well enough to understand what they have done then they are haunted by their actions. I have seen this first hand and would never wish this on someone, then again I would not wish any of what we are going through on anyone.
You hear about the circle of life, living things all have a moment at which they become "alive." That beginning of life marks the first point on the circle of life. Each living thing has its own life cycle. they are born, mature, and die. The same thing happens with grief, in the begining it is almost unbearable, your feelings are so conflicted that you don't know how to feel and as time goes by, one day you feel that the journey has come to the end. The end of the journey of grief is different for each person, but I can assure you the haunting feelings of grief will always be there but at different levels.
I'm sorry for the novel I have written and I wish you luck in dealing with the tragedy that has befallen you and your family, I am here if you need someone to lean on, and I pray that you will one day be fortunate to find forgiveness.
friends4ever
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Post by cthewig on Mar 28, 2008 18:01:21 GMT -5
It has been 7 months now since my beloved brother murdered my beloved father. Although my brother will likely be found insane, I haven't found any answers. Insanity does not answer my questions. How does one forgive a lunatic?! I understand how to excuse a lunatic...but forgive? Wouldn't my brother have to be guilty first before I could forgive?
How could my brother be innocent of willful murder? The court agrees that he murders my father but yet he's innocent. That is nonsense! That is a contradiction. That is absurd.
My only answer is that justice cannot be found in human logic. I must rely on God to justify. Only God can and will truthfully judge this situation and yours. We must look beyond the circumstances to find the answers. Where do you find your answers?
drewsmom, your brother is in prison. Doesn't that justify forgiveness? He was found guilty afterall. You can forgive him for his guilt. How does one forgive "innocent" though?
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 28, 2008 20:18:23 GMT -5
Yes, my brother was found guilty...but even if he was found innocent, I would still feel the same heart-wrenching pain that his actions caused. The guilty or not guilty by reason of insanity verdict, for me, didn't make any difference because they're legal terms. My brother is guilty of the crime whether the court agrees with me or not because he did it. The bottom line is that he killed my Dad, and I and my whole family have suffered --- and continue to suffer -- to this very day. We wouldn't suffer any less because of some legal finding of guilt or innocence, because there's no question that he did the crime.
For me, I struggled with very similar feelings that you're feeling now cthewig. I do feel that God is the only one who can truly "forgive" (or not) my brother for what he did. However, I felt very wronged and hurt by what he did. I could not live with the pain and resentment and the anger towards him. For me, the choice (and it is a choice) that I made was to move forward and try not to let it consume me. I had a lot of counseling (professional and spiritual) to make this decision, and it's certainly not one that I blanketly advise everyone to take. It's something that you have to make on your own.
For me, however, it has been somewhat freeing. I still have not totally forgiven him for what he's done. But what has helped me tremendously is knowing that he wasn't all there in his mind. Somehow it was easier for me to accept his apology for all the hurt that he's caused me in knowing that it was his mental condition which largely contributed to him doing something which is so horrific.
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Post by audreyhughesmclay on Apr 1, 2008 19:49:33 GMT -5
My sisters partner of 16 years suddenly without warning brutally murdered my sister.She left 4 boys behind.The youngest 2 witnessed the brutal murder.I just cannot forgive him as he blew our whole world apart.He to plead insanity which was accepted.He is now in a mental institution for an unlimited amount of time.We as a family feel that justice has not been done.
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