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Post by meme on Feb 28, 2006 15:39:27 GMT -5
I hear from a source or two that one must "forgive" a murderer. These people are totally confused, so let me set the record straight. Murder is UNforgivable.------------------ When a person has chosen to deliberately murder another person that is the thoughts of a dark soul. A dark soul has NO remore and NO conscious. Their entire lives are spent spreading negative energy. When they cannot put out the light of love in another by any other means, they will kill. ____________________________________ If you le, you can admit that lie and tell the truth. If a man steals food to feed his family, that food can be replaced. A murdered person can never come back- murder cannot be undone._____________________________________By forgiving a murder, we endorse that action. No wonder murderers run the streets and murder continues to happen in this stage of human evolution! The dark souls KNOW they can rely on the misguided forgivers, and lax court systems to pat them on the hand "no no dear, you shouldn't do that again". This makes me sick.______________________________ I will never trust nor forgive those who have murdered my loved ones (three different times). And if you are tortured with ths issue, please let it go. We cannot forgive, and should not be expected to forgive the UNFORGIVABLE, (unless we are nuts, following, like mindless sheep, some mis-interpration of holy scripture). The penalty for murder is death. Zero tolerance. If our courts employed zero tolerance, the murder rate would drop dramatically. __________________ I am mad as He** and am campaigning against this murderer of my loved one. The lax judge gave this murderer "house arrest" so I have made flyers depicting her mug shot, all personal criteria provided by the sheriff's office, and distributed them in her neighborhood. I call the TV news station to report every court action and move this murderer makes. Every criminal of this statute should be treated the same way. Exposed for what they are and run out of their own neighborhoods. ____________________________________ **This is different for those who have mental illness and do not know wrong from right.
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Post by myamber20 on Feb 28, 2006 18:24:31 GMT -5
No way No Way it will never happen
Fu@king no way!!! That I will ever forgive my daughters murder or any murder.
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Post by destroyed on Feb 28, 2006 21:43:04 GMT -5
Hell *deleted*!ng NO NEVER EVER EVER WILL I EVER FORGIVE THE PIECE OF SH!T MURDERER THAT BRUTALLY MURDERED MY SON!!! Not me! That word (forgive) is not even in my vocabulary anymore, and especially for the inhuman murderer. These people who preach that sh!t are crazy as he!! and better not come anywhere near me with that bu!!shi! because I not only won't listen to it, I'll let them know what kind of idiots they truly are! Everyday I wish I could murder the murderers that took my son's life and future away from him and from me. I have so much rage and anger in me that I feel like I will explode! When I first saw this post, I was not going to post in it. Figured it was another nut blinded by "thoughts of forgiveness" and murder in family section doesn't apply to my son and I. But...I agree with the first 2 posts...VERY well said!
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Post by meme on Feb 28, 2006 22:57:10 GMT -5
Destroyed, Amen! I also thought of murdering the murderer. I dream of torturing the killer, setting her hair on fire, etc. I know in my heart that I cannot commit murder (don't want to comprimise my spiritual integrity). But, I would really LOVE to permanently disable these murderers. I could question and terrify the murderer by first blinding her, then crippling her hands so that she cannot SEE a victim, nor can she hold a murder weapon. ______________________ Murderers should be killed by the courts in the same way the killers murdered their victims. That's justice. ________________________________________________________ I researched the prison system by calling the warden. The "general population" is suppose to be the most dangerous category of the prison, mixing with all the other criminals every day. BUT... if the murderer is sentenced to the prison's mental ward, they are denied many things. _________________________________________________________ Some of the craziest don't even have a mattress to sleep on, no sheets, no pillow, no blanket, etc. The warden told me she would rather be in general population than the mental ward. In the mental ward, sexual deviance is right out in the open! When they go for dinner, they could easily be felt-up while sitting at the dining table. Other mental inmates wander into your room and urinate on your bed, things like that. ___________________________________ I would enjoy knowing all the creepy things that happen to this murderer after she is sentenced, she deserves the worst treatment known to mankind. In Raleigh, a woman awaiting trial for a capital murder charge is held in the men's "Central" prison. _________________________________________________________ Many lives ARE truely destroyed by the selfish act of a murderer. The ones left behind could even have "survivor's guilt"- why didn't it happen to me, etc. Post tramatic stress disorder. Every holiday has lost it's charm, just another heartbreaking year bookmarking your loss, living without those you loved. I should not say "living", because it ISN'T living, it's day to day robotic survival. Emptiness served with a smile.
Thank you! I am so glad other people feel as I do about NEVER ever forgiving the UNFORGIVABLE!
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 1, 2006 6:39:11 GMT -5
Dear Meme, I went through something like this very soon after the murders in my family. A close friend of mine asked if I'd forgiven my Mother. It was WAY TOO SOON for me. Here I'd just lost my Dad and Grandma at the hands of my Mother. I was living with my Mom and Dad when it happened. My Grandma lived a few doors down from us. I had to move into another place (obviously, it was unthinkable to stay there even if I could have afforded the rent) and I ended up losing my job. It was a temporary job that was SUPPOSED to end up permanent. So on top of everything else I had to find a job. I don't even KNOW how I made it, but I did. I can tell you from experience, do what you need to do when you're ready, or NOT. People that haven't been through this I don't think fully know how DEVASTATING it is. I know the forgiveness issue is a real "hot button" thing. I believe it's UP TO EACH PERSON, just as each person's salvation is up to each person. I'll be honest, I differ with some of the views on this thread, but again, it's up to each of us to decide this issue. All of us have different elements in our cases that affect our thinking. Meme, I want to commend you for recognizing the REALITY of mental illness. My Mother was truly mentally ill. There's many proofs of that in our case. Thank you for not hiding from this issue. There were also non-mental illness issues in our case, so it was a combination of things. I hope this might help you, my own experience with the forgiveness issue right after it happened. Take care.
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Post by meme on Mar 1, 2006 13:58:12 GMT -5
Hi Pumpkin, Dealing with having loved the murderer AND the victim is double-edged. How terribly hard for you. How hard for anyone in that situation. In the case of mental illess, you cannot hold them totally responsible............... In my case I was not attached to the murderer, because I knew she was an evil, selfish pig. People kill over money, jealousy and property- something no one can take with them in the end anyway! NO, I will NEVER forgive the murderer because that would be making excuses for the SCUM of the earth.Murder is EVIL. I will not accept, nor tolerate evil. Being EVIL is a choice one willfully makes. The best thing to do is turn away from evil people and have absolutely nothing to do with them. They will whine, cry, and ask for "forgiveness" just to get near enough to you to destroy YOUR life next. The evil thrive on destroying one victim after another.
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Post by Charlene on Mar 4, 2006 0:14:35 GMT -5
Here is an excellent article on this issue:
The Sin of Forgiveness
by Dennis Prager Wall Street Journal, December 15, 1997
The bodies of the three teenage girls murdered by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before the students of the Christian prayer group that was shot at announced, "We forgive you, Mike," referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the murderer.
This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, the idea that a central message of Christianity is to forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents, has been adopted by much of Christendom.
The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. But one other recent example stands out. In August, the pastor at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that it was the the duty of all Christians to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the murderer of 168 Americans. "I invite you to look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and then forgive him," the Rev. John Miller said in his sermon. "I have, and I ask you to do so."
The pastor acknowledged: "Considering what he did, that may be a formidable task. But it is the one that we as Christians are asked to do."
Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed and that despite theological differences, there is indeed a Judeo-Christian value system that has served as the bedrock of American civilization. For these reasons I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.
This doctrine undermines the moral foundations of American civilization because it advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt other people, millions of your fellow citizens will immediately forgive you. This doctrine destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness - that forgiveness, even by God, is contingent on the sinner repenting, and that it can only be given to the sinner by the one against whom he sinned.
These tenets are unambiguously affirmed in Luke 17:3-4: "And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."
This flies in the face of what passes for Christianity these days - the declaration, often repeated, that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people - presumably because he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.
You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right - and those they murdered are dead and therefore cannot forgive them. (Indeed, that is why I believe that humans cannot forgive a murderer.) If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do - even if we do not repent, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do to anybody, God and his forgiveness are entirely unnecessary. Those who forgive all evil done to others have substituted themselves for God.
When confronted with such arguments, some callers to my radio show offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students," these callers argued, "they were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Let us summarize this argument: You murder my classmates, and the next day I announce that I forgive you for the pain you caused me! That such self-centered thinking masquerades as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life.
Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-everyone-everything doctrine: Victims should be encouraged to forgive all evil done to them because doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This, too, is selfishness masquerading as idealism: "Though you do not deserve to be forgiven, and though you may not even be sorry, I forgive you because I want to feel better."
The rise of the theology of automatic "forgiveness" is only one more sign of the decline of traditional religiosity and morality. As Yale Prof. David Gelernter, who was severely injured by the Unabomber, notes in his thoughtful recent book, "Drawing Life," the 1960's made making moral judgments the greatest sin. He points out that none of his pre-1975 dictionaries contains the word "judgmental." Today, judging evil is widely considered worse than doing evil.
Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that - many Christians are repulsed by the demoralization and dumbing down of religion - the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?
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Post by mattsma on Mar 4, 2006 12:02:41 GMT -5
That is a great article Charlene, Thank you for sharing it with us. Forgiveness (like respect)..........must be earned. I doubt that I will ever be forgiving when it comes to murder. take care & b-safe deb
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Post by meme on Mar 4, 2006 19:12:45 GMT -5
The role of fear in religion plays on the insecurity of mankind. The uneducated can always be controlled by fear. Even the educated can fall into the trap of "religious doctrine" and follows blindly o forgive because others do. This is akin to not eating meat on Fridays. Follow blindly or start using the common sense that God gave you. ________________________________________________________ How sick do we have to be to forgive such evil creatures as murderers?_______________________________
EXODUS 20:13 Thou shall not kill. _____ ROMANS 1:32 Who knowing the judgement of God, that which they commit such things (murder) are worthy of death. _____ NUMBERS 35:30 Whoso killeth any person, the murderer shall be put to death._____ 1 JOHN 3:15 No murderer hath eternal life. _____ 1 KINGS 2:33 Their blood (of the murdered) shall run upon the head of the murderer, and upon the head of their seed forever. _____GENESIS 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood by man shall his blood be shed. _____REVELATIONS 21:8 But for the ...murderers... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. _____GALATIONS 6:21 ...Murders and the like that which do such things will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven! etc. etc. _____________________________________ Obviously, God has said there are two deaths. One of the physical, and one of the spiritual. If God does not forgive a murderer, who are WE to think we are smarter, more moral than God? ____________________________________________________ When Jesus said "the meek shall inherit the earth" what he was telling us is that if those who are TOO COWARDLY AND MEEK to stand up against evil and murderers, they will NOT inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. They will only inherit the earth, 6 feet deep.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 5, 2006 9:42:25 GMT -5
Thanks, Meme, for your sympathies. I'm going to have conflicting feelings over what happened to us until I die I'm sure. I think inter-family murder survivors have more issues to deal with to be honest. The rest outside of those few ALL of us survivors deal with. Which is a ton of stuff to recover from. The fact that we're sane shows we won't let is destroy us, and that's 1 way of winning against it.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 5, 2006 9:54:48 GMT -5
While I do agree with some points made in the article, the author is leaving out Matthew 6:14-15, which doesn't surprise me to be honest. The "instant" forgiveness troubles me. It took me MANY years to forgive my Mother, and I had to do it through prayer and ask for God's help. I couldn't do it on my own. For what we've been through on this board, instant just isn't possible for many, and I KNOW it wasn't for me. These people should balance this view with ACCOUNTABILITY also. Those who DO murder and DO NOT repent WILL go to hell. There's more than 1 scripture in the Bible that says this. This is 1 of the most troubling things to me with my Mother. I wish if there was some way I could know in this life if she repented TO God. She expressed remorse in different ways, but as far as I know didn't say anything about the afterlife. I asked her guardian about this and he said to him she didn't. It troubles me but I have to kind of let it go or I could let it drive me crazy. Whille I totally agree with Matthew 6:14-15, it's not easy at all. And I think God will understand this being a process to GET to that point. It sure was in my case. But, after doing it, I have the most peace I've had with the whole sick thing. Forgiveness is NOT excusing or minimizing what the person did. The person still has accountability to God and other people. But, to me personally, not forgiving to me was going to keep the power of the event OVER my life, keeping me from progressing and not letting it destroy me. I see it as part of my resolve to NEVER do to my life what my Mother did to hers. Please note, I'm speaking of my OWN process with this, not saying everyone should do this. It's up to EACH person. And I believe it doesn't lessen the love I have/had for my Dad and Grandma. I've paid tribute to both of them in more ways than 1. If I didn't care about them enough, I wouldn't have bothered. Anyway, thanks for listening.
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Post by meme on Mar 5, 2006 18:45:48 GMT -5
Pumpkin,you loved both the murderer and the victim. That has to be the hardest thing imaginable. Naturally, you would want to forgive your own mother. But, weren't you outraged at some point? Damn, to put you or anyone in that position is so selfish. We cannot compare mental illness to the premeditated murders of our loved ones by anyone who is able to plan out a vicious, evil task. You must have felt that there was no other way out other than to forgive- because you LOVED your mother.
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Post by toniga on Mar 7, 2006 19:28:50 GMT -5
I think forgiveness is a hard topic for all of us for varying reasons.I don't think everyone should or has to forgive someone who killed a loved one because of some sort of obligation.I think it's easy for someone to say forgive this person aka the murderer when it hasn't happened to them personally.I think "forgiveness" is a lot like the term "moving on".It's what people tell others when they don't want to hear about reality.
In my case ,I struggle with so much frustration and anger, regarding my mother and forgiveness.I feel intense anger and also pity.I still havent forgiven her for all the damage and heartache her actions caused me and my siblings.I don't know if she meant to kill my dad at the point she killed him.I do know she tried to get someone to kill him at some point but the letter she wrote was intercepted.
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Post by survivor5 on Mar 8, 2006 0:08:44 GMT -5
I can't forgive~in my belief for me to say I forgive what he has done would to say I have power over him I don't possess. I'm not a higher power, I'm only human. Also, he has never asked for forgivenes or said he was sorry. The way he took her life is inexcusable in every moral and spiritual way. I try to make my revenge as "the best revenge is a good life". It's hard some days! I will not sink to his level if I can help it. ~Kim
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Post by survivor5 on Mar 8, 2006 0:28:07 GMT -5
Sorry~afterthought! My son (whois 13 now)doesn't forgive his dad for killing his 'other mom',but he accepts the fact far better than me.....i.e. he can love his dad, but be mad as hell for what he did.
God help us all if my son realizes what a truly evil father he has. ~Kim
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Post by toniga on Mar 8, 2006 16:28:38 GMT -5
Kim,Hang in there.I am sure you tell your son that he isn't his father although he is from him.If people in my life had told me I wasn't my mother I think it would have helped me greatly in my life journey.
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Post by meme on Mar 8, 2006 20:18:33 GMT -5
Too many times,the children are shielded from all the grizzley facts involving murder. The murder scene can be covered up with new paint and the bloody carpet replaced. The body can be closed casket or cremated before the funeral. It is my belief that if a child is mature enough to understand murder, allow them to view the handiwork of those that murder so they will KNOW what the murderer actually did. If everyone cleans up the crime scene, where is the horror of the reality? _______________________________________________ The child will never know, nor believe the extent of evil that the murderer has in his/her soul. The murderer needs to be exposed as DANGEROUS, ABNORMAL, and EVIL. ________________________________________________ In my case the "child" was 18, and every bit of evidence was wiped clean, with repainted walls, replaced carpet. The dingbat 18 yr old never saw, thus is not convinced her murdering mom did anything evil. "They just had an argument"... BS! I hope the 18 yr old now 19) has to look at the gastly murder photos when she testifies. Hello, it's time to smell the coffee. Half her dad's face was cut off, among other horrors. ___________________________________________________ It makes my blood boil to think what my precious Bruce went through. Forgive? Hahahahahahahahahaha! ____________________________________________ This willful and intentional murderer needs to be burned at the stake. To forgive this disgusting murderer would be an insult to all morality and honor! Having said that, if I had loved BOTH parties, the murdered AND the murderer it would be an awfully hard pill to swallow. I may still love the person, but to forgive means to wipe the slate clean. Nope. They have to be accountable. Do the crime, do the time.
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Post by survivor5 on Mar 11, 2006 0:45:25 GMT -5
How true! My ex and his family cleaned everything up and pretended like it never happened. Within a month he had another woman sleeping in the same room! I took the kids there four times, two times after I left, I had to pull the car over and puke. I said I couldn't do it anymore. I found out later my children were as traumatised as I was going there. I refused to let them go back. Again, my kids have been thru much, I tell them what they ask to hear. I also have a volume of their dad should they ever want to see it. Guess that's the best I can do. ~Kim
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Post by ginger on Mar 11, 2006 5:21:42 GMT -5
If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?
excuse me? there is nothing in MY culture that freaking condones murder.
That author can look to his OWN culture and the christians for that one. Give me a break.
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Post by meme on Mar 11, 2006 14:19:45 GMT -5
Survivor, Why would ANYONE clean up a crime scene and pretend that nothing happned??? Wouldn't the jury be interested in seeing the crime scene? How can people do this, cover up the crime scene? What are they thinking?
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 12, 2006 12:49:46 GMT -5
Dear Meme, I still feel outrage to this day. I'll never NOT believe the whole thing could have been prevented, mainly prevented if all in my family would have fully faced Mom's mental illness, and were living right spiritually. But, 1 of the reasons I forgave her were my beliefs, ie., Matthew 6:14-15. There were MANY years just the mention of her I'd start swearing and feel huge anger. It took many years for me to get to the forgiveness point. I'm still working on my irrational anger problem, but the good news is I'm near the end of the road of that process. It's all a different amount of time, depending on the circumstances of our cases. Which is 1 reason why it's up to EACH person if he/she forgives. On this I agree with Toniga. I still have conflicting feelings about my Mom and always will. So for me choosing to forgive her, there was more to it than my love for her. As I said, I still feel outrage. What happened changed me in some ways for good, and not positively. I am basically afraid of people, think the worst right off, and have had to learn the tools to contradict this type of thinking right off. As for all of us on here, it wasn't a cut and dried thing, and we're all going to be changed in some ways for the rest of our lives.
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Post by survivor5 on Mar 13, 2006 23:25:11 GMT -5
Oh sorry meme, for misleading you, they had the crime lab come down pronto and had a cop there 24/7 for three days to preserve and to have others take evidence. They had the Department of Justice and the FBI involved too. I was talking about afterwards,sorry. They(my ex and his family) just acted like nothing ever happened. Like she never existed. Talked to one of the main cops again tonite. Six weeks to trial. He said my ex doesn't have a hope in hell. That's what scares me. I know my ex. He hated spending one night in jail. Think he's going to take a chance of spending the rest of his life in prison? NOT. love, kim
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Post by meme on Mar 13, 2006 23:42:45 GMT -5
Yes Pumpkin, we are all changed forever. The trusting hope and joyful attitude were killed along with my beloved. __________________________________________ The evil spread their misery, that is their mission in life. Knowing they have succeeded in filling the lives of others with pain, is their way of "winning". ______________________________________________ There is nothing irrational about anger. That is normal and healthy. Swallowing the anger would make one sick. Remember even Jesus got angry with the merchants at the temple. Jesus threw a rage, overturning tables, telling the moneymongers what he thought of them in no uncertain terms. If the perfection that is Jesus shows righteous anger, WE are certainly entitled. I feel as though I will always be angry at Bruce's murderer. I have never seen the murdering b!tch: if I ever see her... I have no idea what I will do. If I see her outside of a courtroom, God help me. Forgive? No such thing exists for murderers. God does not forgive murder. The holy bible states over and over that the penalty for murder is death. ____________________________________ "No Murderer hath Eternal Life" 1 John 3:15
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 19, 2006 6:28:28 GMT -5
Dear Meme, I agree that righteous anger is a great thing, ie., Jesus throwing the moneychangers out of the Temple. Righteous anger has changed many things for the better in the world, such as civil rights and the Protestant Reformation. However, my anger wasn't/isn't the righteous kind. When I get the irrational anger I act just like my Mother did and accuse and get upset over things that there's no proof for. I've never gotten physical with this, thank God. Neither has my fiance gotten that way with me. The good thing is the help I've gotten has reduced when I do this to hardly ever. My goal is to NEVER do it. I hate it and the hurt it's caused my fiance. I think it's a result of the deep-seated anger I have over the murders plus living with my Mom for over 20 years and the abuse she dished out verbally and emotionally. However, it's up to me to fix it, and the help I've gotten and am getting is working. Right now am working on the spiritual area of this and it's working the most and the quickest of the help I've gotten so far. I don't have the mental illness she had and thank God, otherwise if I did I think I'd be worse. Anyway, I'll get to my goal. Thanks for listening.
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Post by meme on Mar 19, 2006 14:46:57 GMT -5
Survivor, I gotcha. It seems, although the trial could be a year away, that the jury would want to SEE the murder scene firthand. It must be too "inconvenient" for the murderer's lifestyle to find alternative housing. Granted, that he murderer is out on bond, LIVING at the murder scenc. What is wrong with this picture??? The lead detective says the murderer in my case has NO chance either. Some comfort THAT is if they are out on bond!!! I could spit nails. ______________________________________________ Pumpkin, yes I agree. The spiritual way is the truth. Try as I might, to surround the enviroment with spirituality, I am STILL MAD AS HELL. I know I am able to kill with my bare hands (strong as a horse, a little TaeKwonDo & lots of RAGE). Bruce was strong too- strong as ten men, but he would never raise a hand against a woman, EVEN while a woman was murdering him. Spiritually, we cannot use physical force behind our rages. But I'm NOT going to eat the rage, I will use any legal means to expose and destroy Bruce's evil murderer, and shine the light on Bruce's pure, loving life. Hey! If the murderer or her disgusting family members has a problem with that, I'll be happy to spar it out with them
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Post by kjasonn6969 on Mar 20, 2006 11:22:09 GMT -5
I understand what you are going through I have two of my family members murdered. I look over my shoulder every waking moment and wounder if I could be next. I have done not foregiven the men who have done this but I have learned that I will not have to be a victim eilther. Keep faith and it is your decion to foregive or not. We are all here for you.
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Post by meme on Mar 20, 2006 13:31:39 GMT -5
Kjason, If God does not forgive murderers, I'm certainly not going to. The Holy Bible states that over and over. We are to shun murderers from society and put them to death. It was the murderers willful and intentional decision to be evil. To take something they could not replace. _____________________________________________ No murderer is allowed into heaven. _______________________________________________"No murderer hath eternal life" 1John 3:15 _______________________________________________ I'm glad you found this board. An evil act effects our lives forever. You looking over your shoulder means your peace of mind has been violated and stolen. If you want to forgive, that is what works for you. Your life theme may be one of peace. _____________________________________ For me, I feel the need to fight against evil. Maybe if we had zero tolerance for murder on earth, the evil act of murder would be a very rare occcurance. Instead, look at the pain and grief that murder causes. Murder is on the hour, every minute, every hour. _________________________________ The 4 Arcangels are God's strongest warriers against evil. I figure I can try to do my small part here on earth to fight evil. If just half the population stopped tolerating these disgusting murderers, think of how safe the world could be. No more looking over your shoulder.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 22, 2006 6:35:56 GMT -5
Meme, I've found in my Bible reading and other study that the only unforgiveable sins are to reject the salvation from Jesus Christ and to take the mark of the beast (this is in the Book of Revelation). All other sins can be forgiven. However, IF the murderer does NOT repent and accept Christ, of course he/she will go to hell. The same for adultery, alcoholism, witchcraft, etc., many sins. So it's many sins that can put people in hell. I'll always believe that the worst person can change. I really hope my Mother repented. I wish if there was some way I could know. My fiance believes that her mental illness was something God would account for, but I have to admit I'm not in full agreement with him on this. My Mother did have short periods of knowing what she did. So this is 1 reason I don't fully agree with my fiance. Anyway, I know you and I don't fully agree on these things, but I like how we're able to discuss it without personal attacks. This is a comfort to me, as I was never Miss Popularity with some of the people I used to interact with when I went to meetings of a support group. Thanks for listening.
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Post by meme on Mar 22, 2006 12:10:00 GMT -5
Pumpkkin, People who murder have ALREADY rejected Jesus Christ. People who are evil have decided to turn their backs on God. Willfully and intentionally. The mark of the beast is intentional, evil actions. __________________________________________________________________ A man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his hungry family is not in the same category as a murderer. __________________ People who intentionally murder cannot later whine "oops, my bad" and claim they have repented while cooling their heels in prison. How convenient. They couldn't repent til AFTER they were caught? These are people that are dark souls, they trick you with false friendship, fake sweetness. ________________________________________ You are right about the bible listing other sins, but MURDER is clearly pointed out as unforgivable. MURDERERS are people who suffer the SECOND death, death of the body- then death of the SOUL. See Revelation 21:8. _________________________________ I appreciate your comments. Alcoholism is a disease, these poor people need help just as a diabetic or cancer victim. I cannot believe alcoholics are evil unless they deliberately turn their backs against God (which is a separate issue). ________________________ I worked at a Baptist church a few years ago. Some people (including church co-workers) thought if you read your horoscope, you are a believer in witchcraft. That to me is so silly. No one is going to hell for reading their horoscope. Now, if you draw a pentagram on the floor, light candles to honor satan, and kill a person as a sacrifice- yep, you'll suffer the second death and go to hell. Take care!
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 26, 2006 7:08:44 GMT -5
I know my Mother wasn't right spiritually before she did it. I don't know for sure if she was EVER saved, before or after. God is the 1 who KNOWS FOR SURE her status. I will always keep hoping she repented. "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance"-2nd Peter 3:9; Mark 3:28-29: Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (this is Jesus saying this); Moses in the "Faith Hall of Fame", those who God praises as godly men: Hebrews 11:23-29 (Moses murdered a man, see Exodus 2:11-15, then never did it again, and was handpicked by God to be a leader/prophet for the people); Luke 23:39-43: Jesus tells the thief on the cross he will be in paradise that day with him, and the verses also notes the repentance of the thief; Romans 5:6-8: For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the UNGODLY (emphasis mine). For 1 will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were YET sinners, Christ died for us.; 1st John 1:8-10: If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us; John 10:27-29: My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they have never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. The Bible as a WHOLE teaches that those who REPENT will be SAVED, no matter what they've done, but those who NEVER repent will go to hell. It's not all about punishment. I know the hell of alcoholism. I did it from the time I was a young teenager until my mid-30's. I have nearly 6 1/2 years now free of it, and I found that God hadn't left me during those years, but that I was the 1 who turned away. People can leave God and then come back. If they never come back, that's tragic and they MAY have never been saved. But, again, God is the 1 who knows for sure about each person. We have to be very careful with this, who we associate with and if he/she is a bad/good influence or not. I've been going through something like this lately to be honest. I've taken steps to fix the spiritual problems I have and it's affected my relationships. Anyway, like I said before, I was never Miss Popularity among some of the people I used to know in the support group I went to, and I never expect to be anywhere due to my views on these issues. I can live with it and won't retreat from what I've learned and experienced. Thanks for listening.
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