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Post by beemo on Jan 20, 2008 21:09:19 GMT -5
......does anyone know what I should expect? I am meeting with both the prosecutor and the public defender (the trial is scheduled for March 10).
Thanks for your input.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 21, 2008 16:34:49 GMT -5
Not sure. It could be many different things. Have been notified by both sides that they want to use you as a witness? If so, then they could be meeting with you to "prepare" you for testimony. It also could mean that they're thinking about a plea deal. I think I remember you saying that you wouldn't mind a plea deal as it would avoid your family the pain of going through a trial. Do you still feel the same way?
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Jan 22, 2008 9:55:39 GMT -5
Dear beemo, I wish I could help you with some "1st hand" advice, but my family had few dealings with the courts. You may want to check with Parents of Murdered Children. There's a link to them on here. Do you have a victims' assistance office in your city? If you do, hopefully they can help. Hopefully, others besides drewsmom will share their experiences with the courts. I hope all works out for you. Take care.
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Post by beemo on Jan 22, 2008 12:11:20 GMT -5
I have been subpeonaed (sp) as a witness by the prosecution.
Yeah, it would be nice to talk about a plea bargain, but I don't think that's what it's about. My meeting is tomorrow, and my mom has one for the following day. She's a witness also.
They probably just want to feel me out. I was interviewed by the detective when it happened, but I haven't ever talked to the defense. They probably want to know if I'm sympathetic or not.
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Post by carolyn on Jan 22, 2008 15:15:32 GMT -5
You probally have to take a depositon. Where both the prosecution and defense att will ask you questions and it will be recorded
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Post by taterfay on Jan 23, 2008 17:39:50 GMT -5
Good luck:)
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Post by beemo on Jan 24, 2008 11:37:57 GMT -5
Get this: the day before my appointment, the victim's advocate (who works in the prosecutor's office and set up the meeting times) calls to say the defense attorney is now not available that day, could I reschedule for Thursday or Friday? Then she says the defense attorney is not available any of those days (the three days she set up for her weeks ago), and she'll have to get back to me when the defense atty. comes up with more available times.
She says this is a typical ploy of the defense, to keep putting this off, then cry that they haven't had enough time to interview the witnesses, and try to push the trial date out. I said that's great for her, she has no emotional ties to this case. Then I said, I really don't HAVE to talk to her, do I? But the advocate said I really don't, but it's not a good thing to do, because then I would be subpeonaed for a deposition to be heard before the judge, and that could delay trial. Not that I would do that anyway, but it sure ticks me off that they can play with your emotions like that.
I had to go to the doctor's office yesterday for a sinus infection, and my pulse rate was 104. The physician's assistant asked if I was on anti-anxiety medication, and I said no, I just try to manage it myself.
Thank you for your responses, I'll let you know what happens if/when it happens.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 24, 2008 18:15:14 GMT -5
So sorry to hear about this beemo. I admire you trying to manage without anti-anxiety medication. I ended up needing it...especially for the trial. I don't think I could've gotten through being on the witness stand without it. Hope your sinus infection gets better. Thanks for the update.
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Post by cthewig on Jan 25, 2008 4:52:04 GMT -5
beemo, My brother's trial is also scheduled for March 10 and my brother is also pleading insanity. I don't know yet if my brother will make it to trial though since he is currently undergoing psychological evaluations. I chose to meet with both attorneys immediately after the incident because I wanted to hear both sides of the story. Meeting them gave me the opportunity to see that they are both good men. I told them that I am unable to judge the situation and that I have to trust their judgements. What I ultimately got out of meeting them both is that my brother and my Dad's loss of life are in good hands. I believe that both men will do their best to defend my brother and Dad.
The most difficult part of this situation for me is not knowing who to be loyal to. I feel loyal to both my Dad and brother. I hate the thought of testifying in favor of my brother because I feel like I am being disloyal to my Dad. I also hate the thought of being disloyal to my brother by testifying against him. I have come to the conclusion though that loyalty plays no part in the trial. We just need to state the simple facts and let the objective jury decide. The judge, jury, and lawyers are our neighbors, our allies. I have to rely on them to judge a situation that I am unable to judge. I have to find peace with whatever they decide.
1 Corinthians 3:16 "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him: for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple."
I have no control over this situation anyways. I release it and all the people involved to God. I trust that whatever happens is what God believes to be best and that's good enough for me. Whether or not the jury convicts my brother or lets him go doesn't really matter. God will deal with my brother for destroying my Dad. Afterall is said and done, I trust in God's judgment of my brother more than I do the judge, lawyers, and jury. I can't judge this situation but God can and will. I trust that God's judgement will be just whether it happens now or fifty years from now. I am at peace with whatever God decides.
1 Corinthians 4:3 "I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself. My conscience is clear, but that does not make me innocent. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts!"
I wish the best for you in your situation as well. I hope that you find peace with whatever happens. I will be thinking and praying for you.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 25, 2008 5:48:04 GMT -5
cthewig has made an extremely good point!!
I, too, was made a witness for both the prosecution and the defense, and I felt a lot of pressure before the trial. I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders, and I didn't know who to be loyal to (my mentally brother killed my Dad). A friend of mine gave me really good advice: he said that my role was simply to tell the truth, not to advocate for one side or the other. The decision for what would happen to my brother was in much bigger hands than mine.
Such advice is actually very freeing.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Jan 25, 2008 11:47:37 GMT -5
cthewig has made an extremely good point!! I, too, was made a witness for both the prosecution and the defense, and I felt a lot of pressure before the trial. I felt like the weight of the world was on my shoulders, and I didn't know who to be loyal to (my mentally brother killed my Dad). A friend of mine gave me really good advice: he said that my role was simply to tell the truth, not to advocate for one side or the other. The decision for what would happen to my brother was in much bigger hands than mine. Such advice is actually very freeing. Dear drewsmom, I agree, EXCELLENT POINT! This is something that we inter-family MVS have to deal with! Who are we loyal to and to what degree? Even if we don't go to trial, we have to make decisions about our loyalty and do we want any kind of relationship with the perpetrator? I've found this 1 of the hardest things we inter-family MVS have to deal with.
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Post by beemo on Jan 25, 2008 13:22:14 GMT -5
That is an excellent point. My counselor also brought up that point (I got counselling shortly after the murder through the victim's compensation fund - wish I could've kept going!). It's very good to be reminded of that and keep it at the front of my mind.
My mom's meeting didn't get cancelled - I guess just the prosecution wanted to meet with her. She said they asked her the same things she'd been asked before. She said she answered all their questions and "didn't lie" (I guess she thought that I thought she would?). She remarked they were probably trying to "trip her up" by re-asking the questions. Her attitude towards the prosecution is interesting to me. Did your mom have the same attitude, Drewsmom?
Thanks, everyone, for the advice and support.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 25, 2008 20:11:37 GMT -5
Well, beemo, in our case, the prosecution did not truly treat us as "victims" because in our case we didn't want the death penalty for my brother. They weren't as sympathetic as I expected they would be if a total stranger had murdered my Dad, because I guess we weren't as outraged at my brother as they expected us to be. So, they held us at arms length because our sympathies lay somewhere in the middle. Does that make sense? They wouldn't talk strategy with us because they knew that the defense attorney was also talking with us. And they treated us almost like we were hostile witnesses...asking us the same question a couple of times to see if we were inconsistent in our statements that we gave the police the night my Dad was murdered (as if I could remember my exact words that night any way!) Nothing prepared me, however, for how the prosecution treated me on the witness stand. Because they knew that I felt my brother was insane at the time of the murder, they did everything they could to discredit me in front of the jury. They knew that my sympathies lied with neither side, but they tried to play me as someone who solely supported my brother, which wasn't true. Today, four years later, I am still incensed about how poorly I and my mother were treated by the prosecution. I actually got more sympathy from the defense attorney...probably because he needed my testimony more than the prosecution did.
I think that's what really turned me off of our whole legal system. No one really wants to get to the truth. They simply want to present their "side"...a very black and white side of either total guilt and total innocence, when sometimes the truth lies in the middle.
I really hope you and your Mom do not have the same experience that I did. I really hope that you're treated with respect and not re-victimized by the whole system. I wish someone would've prepared me for the possibility that I would be made out to be a liar on the witness stand by the very people who I thought were upholding the law and standing for truth and justice. I wish that I could've been better prepared for what it would be like to see my brother staring at me while I was sitting in the witness chair. People on this board tried to warn me and prepare me, but frankly until you actually go through it, nothing can really prepare you for it.
I really do wish you the very best!
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Post by cthewig on Jan 27, 2008 4:28:33 GMT -5
I believe that it is important for us to remember that the prosecutor is defending the dead loved one. The dead loved one deserves to be defended by the prosecutor even if it hurts our feelings. I understand that the prosecution can be cruel but that is their job. My Dad deserves to be defended by the prosecutor since he, himself is unable to defend himself. The prosecutor and defense attorneys are our allies. They are judging an impossible situation. The prosecutor is a hero because he is standing up for my Dad's rights. He is defending a dead man! How heroic!! The defense attorney is a hero because he is standing up for my brother. I have no doubt that my brother is mentally ill. I am confident that my brother in his deviant state of being is being defended to the best of the defense attorney's ability. How heroic to stand up for sick man!! yes even a man that killed his father! If I was sick, I would hope that someone would stand up for me. The epitomy of a hero in my mind is a man that stands up for the weak whether the weak be a dead man or a sick man or anybody else for that matter. Our society is so full of cowards that just look the other way. When someone does actually find the courage to stand up though, how easily we all want to rebuke them for their courage! These men are mine, my brother's, and my Dad's heroes! One or the other of their attempts at defense are going to be unsuccessful but that does not change the fact that they tried to stand up for what is right. These strangers both garner my endearing and everylasting respect for what they are both trying to do for my family.
I am not trying to hurt anybody's feelings. I am just trying to offer you a different perspective. As I mentioned in my previous post, I believe that it is important for us to see the judge, jury, and attorneys as our allies. I believe that adopting this perception will help guide us all through. We can't take the trial personally. The trial is for my Dad and brother.
Humans are falliable. My brother is the epitomy of human fallibility. I don't expect justice to be served by the trial.
God is not falliable. God will ultimately judge my brother. Justice will be served by God. I am at peace with that...even now...even before the trial.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 27, 2008 8:08:39 GMT -5
I think cthewig has an interesting perspective, and as always, takes the very highest road, which is commendable. I do think the prosecution and the defense attorneys vigorously defend their clients. The point that I was trying to make is that sometimes the tactics they take are reprehensible.
Both sides knew very well that I was never fully on their side. But because I didn't support either of their "sides" fully, they only used certain parts of my testimony, and only allowed me to say "yes" or "no" when truly a longer explanation would've presented my true opinion. Being called a liar on a witness stand, to me, is going too far. Especially since I was telling the truth to the detriment of myself. Preventing me and my family from sitting in the courtroom so we could actually hear what happened the night of the murder, and hear whether my Dad suffered or not, was an outrage!
Not allowing me and my family to read the police report or the medical autopsy of my Dad because "we were witnesses" was heartbreaking.
Having to pay $1 a page ($1,900) to get a copy of the trial testimony because I was barred from the trial, is an outrage. I feel that if family members are barred from the trial, they shouldn't have to pay to read the facts about their loved ones murder.
Presenting only partial facts about how a person truly feels, is not the truth. I guess it's very hard for me not to take it personally since it happened to me.
The hardest part for me is that I felt so let down and victimized by the very system I thought was supposed to be about "truth and justice." There was no justice in our case, and very little truth.
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Post by cthewig on Jan 27, 2008 9:12:49 GMT -5
drewsmom595 Justice may have not been served in your trial nor do I believe it will be served in mine. The entire situation is outrageous if you ask me. I never thought that I would see the day that I would have to sit as a witness of my brother's murder of my father.
I for one appreciate not having to sit in the courtroom though. I believe that the state is protecting me by not allowing me in. They are just trying to protect my sanity. I need that as where you may not have. I don't want to see pictures of what my brother did to my dearest Daddy. There is some knowledge that I just don't need to know. What you saw as an offense, I see as a blessing. I must admit though that the choice should be up to the family.
Thank you for sharing your post with us. I'm sorry for the difficulties that you had during the trial. My previous post was not meant to undermine or belittle your pain and experience. I am just trying to find a way to spare myself from the same difficulties.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Jan 27, 2008 9:52:14 GMT -5
I never took offense, cthewig! I admire your ability to always see the good in every situation, and it's a refreshing perspective for me to hear.
I agree with you that it should be the family's choice whether they want to be in the courtroom. Frankly, I wasn't sure I could handle hearing all the details, but when that "right" was taken away from me, it infuriated me...because I would've at least liked to have heard some of it. I would've sat in the back of the courtroom, and quietly left when photos were shown. That should've been my choice.
I do think that people who've experienced a family member kill another family member are unique. We're unique in the pain, because it's a double assault and a double loss. The conflicting swirl of emotions many of us feel are unique too, especially if we intensely loved both the perpetrator and the victim, as I did.
We're so unique that, in my case, the prosecution and the defense didn't quite know how to "handle" me. The prosecutor in my case was used to families of murder victims wanting to "win at all costs" and press for the death penalty. The defense attorney, in my case, was surprised that I still had feelings for my brother (although I hated what he did, I didn't hate him). The defense attorney was surprised that I didn't want the death penalty for my brother either. Neither attorney could see any shades of gray.
I don't mean to come off sounding cynical. I do hope that by sharing my experience, that others in similar situations can be better prepared for the shock and hurt that I felt during my brother's trial.
It is extremely hard to be up on the witness stand to begin with. It's doubly hard when your brother, the person who you thought you knew, is staring back at you. It's devastating to know that total strangers are allowed in the courtroom, when you're sequestered away and can't hear a single syllable. It's awful to gather up the courage to walk into the courtroom, and have both sides take swipes at you.
Perhaps my situation is unique...because I really was in the middle. I really wasn't "for" either side. I offer up my experience only with the sincere hope that it doesn't happen to anyone else. And if it does, at least they'll know that it's happened to me too.
I can't tell you how alone I felt until I found this board. I felt like such a freak because I didnt' know anyone who has had a brother murder their father. Coming here, and knowing that I'm not alone, has made all the difference in the world to me. I read everyone's posts and try to learn something from each one. While I'm very sad for all of our losses, I'm glad that I've found a board where people have been through similar situations.
And I'm most inspired by people who have experienced the lowest of the lows, as we have, and still have the resilience to get back up and rebuild their lives with hope and joy in their hearts. That's what I'm aspiring to do. It's a struggle every single day.
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Post by beemo on Mar 7, 2008 13:29:35 GMT -5
I finally had a meeting with the attorneys Wednesday (nothing like last minute, eh?). It wasn't quite as bad as I expected. I thought I would have to answer A LOT more questions. So hopefully the defense atty won't ask me anything different than she did in the meeting.
Afterwards I met with the prosecuting atty and he went over the questions he will be asking me. Several of the questions were the same at the defense. I asked about being in the courtroom after my testimony. If both attys dismiss me, I could stay, but in most cases the attys reserve the right to recall witnesses, which means I wouldn't be able to. I was told I could be present for closing arguments if I wanted to be.
In our county, it seems that the prosecution doesn't usually go for the death penalty in cases where family members are involved in the crime (not that I would have wanted it).
So please say a prayer for me on Monday, that's when the trial starts and I will probably be testifying that day, and possibly called back later. I'm afraid of having an anxiety attack on the stand! But, I did find out he waived the right to a jury trial, so that might make it a little less intimidating.
Thanks for all your help & support!
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 7, 2008 18:14:26 GMT -5
Hi beemo:
I will definitely say a prayer for you and be thinking of you on Monday. Like you, I also was afraid of having an anxiety attack on the stand. I ended up taking an anti-anxiety medicine an hour before I was expected to testify and it did take the edge off. I know it's not for everyone, so perhaps you feel you don't need it.
Just remember to take deep calming breaths when you start feeling really anxious. It really does work! And know that the weight of the trial doesn't rest on your shoulders. You're job is simply to tell the truth...and let the chips fall where they may.
Make sure you carry some tissues with you in your pocket. I ended up needing them. And try to prepare yourself mentally for seeing the defendant staring at you. Remember that you don't have to look in that direction, and can focus your attention on the attorney asking you questions.
It's soon be all over. I really do wish you all the best. Take care...and let us know how it goes.
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Post by beemo on Mar 10, 2008 12:16:14 GMT -5
You're exactly right. I keep reminding myself I'm just one small piece of the puzzle. I have to be to court at 3:30 (pacific time), so I'll let you know how it goes!
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Mar 10, 2008 13:58:49 GMT -5
Dear beemo, I wish you the best with everything. Please let us know how it goes. Take care.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 12, 2008 4:27:13 GMT -5
Beemo:
Just wanted you to know that I'm thinking about you, and hoping that everything is going OK to you. Please let us know the outcome, when you have a moment. Remember, deep, calming breaths...
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Post by beemo on Mar 13, 2008 11:56:57 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your thoughts & prayers.
I ended up testifying Tuesday morning. A lot of praying got me through without freaking out on the witness stand. It was hard, mostly because the attorneys would say, "you said this, right?" and I couldn't remember using that exact phrase. One phrase was just from the meeting I just had March 5th. But I held my ground, if I didn't remember using that term, I didn't agree with it. The defense attorney has a condesending tone, like I was an idiot for not agreeing with her. It happened with the prosecution, too. I got stuck on the word "incriminate." I didn't remember using that term. The detective may have said it, and I may have agreed with him, but I don't recall using that word myself. It's so confusing! That's the way they want it though, I think. The prosecution said they might call me back, but I haven't heard anything yet. Intially the trial was supposed to be done today, but I don't think it will be over until tomorrow. I would like to attend the closing statements if I can. My father in law and husband have been attending, so I'll get updates from them after it's over. I've been good and haven't asked any questions until I know I won't be recalled.
There was a TV camera there when I testified, but asked not to be on camera or mic. It's hard enough to have everyone in the courtroom looking at you and weighing your every word, let alone everyone watching the news!
The news reported my mom and I had drew very different pictures of my dad & nephew's relationship. I said they bickered a lot and my mom said they were very close. I don't think that's mutually exclusive. But my mom laughed about it like we should pretend to be at each other's throats and roll down the courtroom halls like we were fighting.
I did find myself feeling bad for my nephew, which I didn't expect. I still think he is dangerous and I am still very upset about him killing my dad. At least the horrible anticipation of the trial and testifying is soon behind me. I wonder how long it will take the judge to make his decision.
Thanks again for your support. It has helped immensely. I'll let you know what the outcome is.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 13, 2008 18:05:50 GMT -5
Hi beemo:
I'm glad that this will soon be over for you. In fact, I hope you don't get recalled so it truly will be all over for you, and you can attend the closing statements. I do remember both attorneys doing the same thing to me. It must be some lawyerly trick to either try to trip you up, or make us look indecisive and untrustworthy. I really do think it's intentional.
You feeling bad for your nephew, while surprising, is not unusual to me. I had a similar feeling when I saw my brother staring back at me.
I'm glad your husband and father in law have been able to be in the courtroom. I'm sure they've been taking good notes and can fill you in on all the details you missed.
I don't know how long it will take the judge to reach a decision. It may even be the same day, which would be nice so you don't have to wait over a weekend.
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Post by beemo on Mar 18, 2008 12:44:29 GMT -5
There was no court on Friday, and yesterday the psychiatric testimony concluded and closing arguments were given. The judge said he would give his decision Thursday morning at 8:30. I've already asked for the time off work, so I will be there. I will let you know what happens.
Drewsmom, what happened with your brother? Did he go to prison or the mental hospital? I think I remember you talking about driving your mom to the prison to visit him......
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 19, 2008 4:38:56 GMT -5
He ended up going to prison for life...which in a way was an initial relief for me (because I didn't have to worry about him getting out and killing me or my son), but it's sort of turned into my own private hell because he's not getting treatment in prison, and he's being abused by other prisoners...and I really wish there were a better place for severely mentally ill people than regular prison.
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Post by beemo on Mar 19, 2008 10:47:01 GMT -5
I was just looking up another case we had here 5 months after my dad's murder. An 18 year old that was diagnosed bipolar killed both of his parents. He was found guilty in January of this year and sentenced to life in prison without parole in February.
My search also brought up an article inspired by the case about severly mentally ill people in prison. If you want to PM me your e-mail, I'll see if I can send it to you.
I have a feeling exactly what you said is going to happen in my case, too. I'll let you know what happens tomorrow.
There's just no escaping it, it sucks all the way around.
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Post by beemo on Mar 21, 2008 11:39:31 GMT -5
I went to court yesterday to hear the judge's decision. He said there was insufficient evidence to find not guilty by reason of insanity, so his decision was guilty of first degree murder.
The judge spoke for nearly an hour on how he came to his decision, and I have to say he gave a very good case. It's obvious he gave a lot of thought to it, and I believe from the evidence he reviewed, it was a fair decision. I didn't realize my nephew bought the knife he used only 3 days prior.
The way the judge reviewed his decision, it helped me know what went on in court since I didn't attend the trial. I cringed when he talked about my testimony regarding a letter I received from my nephew about five days prior, because my mom was there and I felt like she would be upset with me.
I talked with the prosecutor and the detective after the trial. The prosecutor was worried about my state of mind, and told be my nephew would receive treatment in jail. The detective thanked me for being honest. All of my family sat on the defense side of the courtroom, while I sat on the state's side with my husband & father in law. I also spoke with a reporter from the paper I work at.
Later in the day I spoke with my sister, and she said she was doing okay. My mom called me to let me know she was staying the night at a friend's house, and she said she was doing okay. We didn't talk much.
I'm very relieved this is over. Although if there is an appeal, I guess it won't really be over. I hate the thought of having to testify again.
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Post by drewsmom595 on Mar 21, 2008 17:27:58 GMT -5
I'm glad you feel it's a fair decision, and I'm glad that it is technically "over" for you. You're right in that an appeal will be filed, but I highly doubt anything will come of it. At least, nothing came of it in our case...and there were serious errors made at the trial.
I was told that the trial's errors needed to be of such a magnitude that they would've caused a jury or judge to reach a different conclusion. It sounds like the judge in your case really pondered all the evidence, and had no other choice but to make the decision that he did.
I do hope that time will heal most of the pain that you and your are experiencing. I wish I could say that all the pain will go away, but I really don't want to lie.
Take care, beemo!!!
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Post by beemo on Apr 4, 2008 11:54:20 GMT -5
At the sentencing, the judge said he needed to interview some people before he decided on the sentence. I am assuming he wants to talk to some of the psychiatric professionals (I heard this second hand as I didn't attend). So he won't decide until mid-May. My nephew is staying in the county jail until then. It's actually easier on my mom because it is much closer than the mental hospital.
I had an unexpected breakdown about a week ago. I was dusting my bookcase and looked at a book my dad had bought me for my birthday one year. It was a significant gift because it was the first time he bought me something himself. It's a Rose is Rose cartoon book called something like, "Happiness is a blanket that purrs." He inscribed it, "To my darling daughter, who always has a blanket that purrs." (I LOVE cats). It sent me bawling.
Have a peaceful weekend everyone.
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