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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 20, 2003 13:27:20 GMT -5
Seems the last few years, everything that can happen always happens the last 2 weeks of May, right before my birthday. I'm really starting to think I should just lock myself in my home and take my vacation these last 2 weeks. Friday, Richard, a really good friend, was in a car accident trying to avoid another car accident that had just occurred. Instead of plowing into the wreckage or oncoming traffic, he ditched right and ended up in some woods. He suffered two borken cheekbones, some serious lacerations and temporary paralysis. He was airlifted to the hospital. Today I find out that Anita, my husband's godchild, was placed in a psychiatric facility for attempting suicide; her boyfriend slit HIS wrists yesterday. Top that with there is supposed to be some sort of gang war in the area schools Thursday and now my daughter is terrified of going to school on Thursday, her last day. (A Crips vs Bloods thing) My co-worker's son told us all about it, that to make sure to not get caught in the crossfire, to not wear blue or red clothing for the rest of the week. What is this world coming to? At lunch today, our resident ordained minister (he is in our sales department) decided to quote "the good book" and add to the lovely table conversation on forgiveness. He added my life would stay in turmoil and I would never experience true happiness with life (or anything else) until I learned to forgive Gary for murdering Mom. I asked him to put himself in my shoes. If he were to come home and find the scene I found and it were HIS wife , or sons, or Mum (he's from England) would he be able to? Of course, his answer was "Yes". Now what do you say to someone like that? Not wanting to really let loose on my frustrations these past few days, I elected to keep my mouth shut for the remainder of the time. (THAT was hard enough). Comments? Suggestions? None of my "standard" replies seemed to have any effect whatsoever. Not that I was trying to change his mind, but to help him understand how I felt about losing Mom.
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Post by Clarissa on May 20, 2003 15:05:33 GMT -5
Samantha, I'm so sorry about all of the unhappy things happening around you. It's the same for us, too. 1. A good friend and former employee of my husband is in the final stages of ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). 2. Another friend from work who was in remission from liver cancer is now sick with it again, and probably won't make it this time. 3. Still another co-worker was in a serious motorcycle accident about 3 weeks ago, and is hospitalized with multiple fractures, including his pelvis (My husband is particularly affected by the things involving co-workers because he has worked with the company for nearly 40 years and these people are more like family to him.) 4. Our best friends (not from work) in the whole world are having serious marital problems and it looks like a divorce is imminent. 5. On 3 June, the guy who's already been tried & convicted TWICE of killing my daughter & her baby will have his second state-sponsored appeal heard by the Florida Supreme Court. It will NEVER be "over" until they execute that whining, lying scumbag. 6. And, as if all of that weren't enough, our 29 yr old son has just been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The odd thing is that I don't think there is any more of this "stuff" going on now than before -- but I do think that we MVS-types now have a heightened awareness. We now notice more. Our innocence has been stripped away, and we see the world for the sad and ugly place it sometimes is. And about the minister in your midst: I'm afraid that I would have ruffled some feathers (his), but had I been you, I would have started by asking him if he had ever personally suffered the loss of a loved one to homicide. Assuming that his answer was "no" -- which it probably is -- I would then tell him that you don't expect him to understand until he walks that particular "mile" in your shoes, because until then, he cannot know nor can he ever even IMAGINE -- what he would do in that situation, and therefore he has no business telling YOU what to do. Then I would point out that I did not ASK for his opinions about my life and forgiveness, and respectfully request that he keep them to himself. Shame on him. Ordination didn't make this man any smarter, any wiser or any holier. It only made him bolder in his ignorance. And if he never speaks to you again, so what? To me, it would be worth being a bit rude to get this idiot to shut up. I don't usually advocate rudeness, but sometimes it seems to be the only available "tool". Perhaps just ignoring him is better, but then I'd always wonder just what other poor unsuspecting soul was going to be the recipient of his recycled drivel. I admire your restraint. Clarissa
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Post by Kangaroo Noel on May 20, 2003 22:24:01 GMT -5
Sammy you have marvelous self cotrol, if it were me man of the cloth or not, I believe his ears would be ringing for a long time, and a good foot up the ginger might have seen him having problems sitting down for a while Cheers
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Post by Clarissa on May 20, 2003 22:50:10 GMT -5
Sammy you have marvelous self cotrol, if it were me man of the cloth or not, I believe his ears would be ringing for a long time, and a good foot up the ginger might have seen him having problems sitting down for a while Noel, you've provided me with the best laugh I've had in quite some time My imagination went NUTS conjuring up just exactly what a "ginger" might look like, especially with a "foot up it" I'm fairly certain that I've pegged the precise anatomical location
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Post by Snowleopard on May 21, 2003 1:02:56 GMT -5
The thing that usually, "non work" that is, calm my turmoil thoughts down is checking the stocks in the kitchen, usually the dry goods. I put this down to two reasons though both intertwine to a greater reason. One: I date my dry goods with a sharpie when I buy them. Two: Long ago, when I was doing finacial counselor (additional duty) work in the Navy, I switched to doing my meals from raw stocks. There are hardly any ready made foods in my kitchen (ie, no tv dinners) to include no bottled milk. I run off powdered. In a world that seems to run so much off of prepared, I'm on a seperate trek.
Ie, both 1 and 2 are that I'm living life in my own way, on my terms, (and in a sense, in my own fantasy).
I said non work. Things like weapons cleaning also clear the mind.
There's a lot in this world I don't like. There's a lot of don't like that I can't do anything about. My resource to handling such is to focus myself into becoming the best I can be in my line of work, to find ways to make myself more efficient.
As far as those who say things we don't want to hear (the forgiveness minister), leave if you can, but if you can't, then don't engage (or don't beyound "that's what makes horseraces"). Years ago when my Navy superiors would make Challenger jokes after the disaster, I showed my distaste to their sense of humor by leaving the room if I could. If not, well...... ----------------------- ("Whenever my mom gets upset, she goes out and BEATS HER RUGS!"---Les Nessman, (wtte), "WKRP")
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 21, 2003 7:03:19 GMT -5
Sammy you have marvelous self cotrol, if it were me man of the cloth or not, I believe his ears would be ringing for a long time, and a good foot up the ginger might have seen him having problems sitting down for a while Cheers THANKS NOEL!! I needed a good laugh! Since the person in question is from England, I got a great mental image from you just rearranging it "English style" - (skinny arse) comes to mind..... ;D
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 21, 2003 7:26:30 GMT -5
Thanks Clarissa. I am so sorry you are going through the wringer, too. I will pray for your son, I am sorry this additional burden has been placed on your family. I don't know much about MS and I don't know anyone who has it, but you can bet I'll be reading up on it today. My heart goes to you. I'll be keeping you in prayer and thought on June 3rd too - please let us know how it turns out. Watching friends who are like family go through marital/relationship problems is really hard isn't it? My best friends brother, Steve, is going through a particularly nasty divorce (wife was running around while he worked) and my best friend (Tracey) just started dating again after ending a 2-year emotionally abusive relationship. I'm mulling over your statement about being more sensitive to what's going on around us. Boy, isn't that the truth?!? I guess because it's that time of year I'm just in a depressive mood. Any idea how to turn it off? I know, can't really do that, but it would be nice if I could really have an on/off switch. I like your statement about him not being any bolder or wiser. I did say he was not an MVS and he really had no idea how I felt. He agreed, but kind of back-slapped me when he said if it did happen, he would follow what he has done for the last 25 years; forgive because (this is his words) God says he has to to continue following His example and His example says we must forgive to see the glory of heaven. Riiiiiiiiigggghhhhhtttttt....... I didn't say anything back because I have to work with this person, at least for right now. Now if I could suddenly win Powerball.......
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Carrie Bills Sister
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Post by Carrie Bills Sister on May 21, 2003 11:47:19 GMT -5
Hi Samantha, Obviously the resident minister had not REALLY explored the topic of forgiveness very thoroughly. Forgiveness is process, not a decision. It can't be feigned, unless of course he is recommending you lie to yourself, him, God, or who ever. Instead of recommending what to say, I'll just share what I would I say..... you can pick and choose what you like of it. 1) Even God does not forgive unconditionally. The perpetrator of sin has to recognize their sin, have some remorse, make some restitution and some sincere repentence. If the sinner does all this, God usually forgives. Nothing I as a survivor say, think, or do, can get in the way of the murderer's redemption with God. If he/she diserves it, God will grant it with or without me. The man who murdered my brother has never expressed remorse or repented that i am aware of, so it would be silly to forgive him. It'd be like throwing clothes in the dryer but skipping the step of washing them. It's between the murdrer and God. I'm out of the equation. 2) Even if remorse was expressed, I have no way to distinguish it from a lie. I don't and never will trust the man that murderered my brother. I admit my limitations. I can't see into his heart to see if remorse and repentence is real, so I would be exercising powers I don't have to try to forgive. As a Christian, I embrace the concept of humbless. It is simply not within my power to utter the words..."YOU are forgiven" to the murderer. I have no way of judging whether forgiveness is deserved and could easily make a horrible mistake if I tried. I turn that over to God...he can see what I can't. Again, I am out of the equation. 3) The Bible does indicate.... "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" This makes perfect sense to me. If I want to be forgiven for something then I best be willing to forgive others for the same. Well....I'm not a murderer so I guess I really don't have to worry about it. 4) So rather than try to judge the heart of a murderer that I can't see into anyhow... I embrace forgiveness as a tool of healing NOT a moral mandate. For me forgiveness entails choosing not to constantly remind myself of how others have hurt or betrayed, so that I don't have to continually re-experience the feelings that go with those thoughts and memories. I will never forget, and I will always feel the way I feel about my brother's murder. But I will do my best to stop the act of this murderer from polluting the rest of my life. It's a shade of forgiveness and it's not about the murderer at all. I have recently gone one step beyond this. I take communion once a month. I feel it is important to have my head and my heart in the right place before doing so. Embracing the spirit of forgiveness is important to me. In honor of God's perfection, I decided that if I make it to Heaven after i die and bump into the murderer, I will accept that they are only there because they did their soul work and God determined them worthy. It isn't my place to second guess God. So even though I don't see this happening, if I saw my brother's murderer in heaven I would somehow find a way to say "welcome". But as long as I am on Earth..... projectile vomit is more likely to flow from my mouth than the words "I forgive you for killing my brother." That's the best I can do. Anything further than this would be a big fat lie.....no one is going to pressure me to lie, especially a minister. Honesty between myself and God is too foundational to my spirituality to mess up. Good Luck Samantha!!! I am so sorry for the hard times you are facing. Be strong. Take Care, Carrie Seems the last few years, everything that can happen always happens the last 2 weeks of May, right before my birthday. I'm really starting to think I should just lock myself in my home and take my vacation these last 2 weeks. Friday, Richard, a really good friend, was in a car accident trying to avoid another car accident that had just occurred. Instead of plowing into the wreckage or oncoming traffic, he ditched right and ended up in some woods. He suffered two borken cheekbones, some serious lacerations and temporary paralysis. He was airlifted to the hospital. Today I find out that Anita, my husband's godchild, was placed in a psychiatric facility for attempting suicide; her boyfriend slit HIS wrists yesterday. Top that with there is supposed to be some sort of gang war in the area schools Thursday and now my daughter is terrified of going to school on Thursday, her last day. (A Crips vs Bloods thing) My co-worker's son told us all about it, that to make sure to not get caught in the crossfire, to not wear blue or red clothing for the rest of the week. What is this world coming to? At lunch today, our resident ordained minister (he is in our sales department) decided to quote "the good book" and add to the lovely table conversation on forgiveness. He added my life would stay in turmoil and I would never experience true happiness with life (or anything else) until I learned to forgive Gary for murdering Mom. I asked him to put himself in my shoes. If he were to come home and find the scene I found and it were HIS wife , or sons, or Mum (he's from England) would he be able to? Of course, his answer was "Yes". Now what do you say to someone like that? Not wanting to really let loose on my frustrations these past few days, I elected to keep my mouth shut for the remainder of the time. (THAT was hard enough). Comments? Suggestions? None of my "standard" replies seemed to have any effect whatsoever. Not that I was trying to change his mind, but to help him understand how I felt about losing Mom.
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Post by Carrie-Bill's sister on May 21, 2003 14:54:55 GMT -5
Thanks Noel!!! You have helped expand my vocabulary in new and creative ways. I've never heard it called "ginger", but I find it quite funny. I'm always looking for good substitutes for swear words. I just can't wait till someone ticks me off the next time so I can use it-hehehehe Take care, carrie Sammy you have marvelous self cotrol, if it were me man of the cloth or not, I believe his ears would be ringing for a long time, and a good foot up the ginger might have seen him having problems sitting down for a while Cheers
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Post by Carrie-Bill's sister on May 21, 2003 14:58:00 GMT -5
Hi Clarissa, I am so sorry to hear about this diagnosis. How advanced is the disease? Did the docs give him any idea of prognosis or what sort of progression of symptoms he can expect? Reason I ask, I know someone who was diagnosed over 10 years ago who is basically still not suffering severe symptoms. I offer my wishes for wellness and prayers for healing. Hang in there. Carrie Take Care, Carrie Samantha, I'm so sorry about all of the unhappy things happening around you. It's the same for us, too. 1. A good friend and former employee of my husband is in the final stages of ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). 2. Another friend from work who was in remission from liver cancer is now sick with it again, and probably won't make it this time. 3. Still another co-worker was in a serious motorcycle accident about 3 weeks ago, and is hospitalized with multiple fractures, including his pelvis (My husband is particularly affected by the things involving co-workers because he has worked with the company for nearly 40 years and these people are more like family to him.) 4. Our best friends (not from work) in the whole world are having serious marital problems and it looks like a divorce is imminent. 5. On 3 June, the guy who's already been tried & convicted TWICE of killing my daughter & her baby will have his second state-sponsored appeal heard by the Florida Supreme Court. It will NEVER be "over" until they execute that whining, lying scumbag. 6. And, as if all of that weren't enough, our 29 yr old son has just been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. The odd thing is that I don't think there is any more of this "stuff" going on now than before -- but I do think that we MVS-types now have a heightened awareness. We now notice more. Our innocence has been stripped away, and we see the world for the sad and ugly place it sometimes is. And about the minister in your midst: I'm afraid that I would have ruffled some feathers (his), but had I been you, I would have started by asking him if he had ever personally suffered the loss of a loved one to homicide. Assuming that his answer was "no" -- which it probably is -- I would then tell him that you don't expect him to understand until he walks that particular "mile" in your shoes, because until then, he cannot know nor can he ever even IMAGINE -- what he would do in that situation, and therefore he has no business telling YOU what to do. Then I would point out that I did not ASK for his opinions about my life and forgiveness, and respectfully request that he keep them to himself. Shame on him. Ordination didn't make this man any smarter, any wiser or any holier. It only made him bolder in his ignorance. And if he never speaks to you again, so what? To me, it would be worth being a bit rude to get this idiot to shut up. I don't usually advocate rudeness, but sometimes it seems to be the only available "tool". Perhaps just ignoring him is better, but then I'd always wonder just what other poor unsuspecting soul was going to be the recipient of his recycled drivel. I admire your restraint. Clarissa
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Post by Kangaroo Noel on May 21, 2003 20:24:26 GMT -5
Sam if you guys are guna come out here you will have to learn the local lingo mate. Cheers
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Post by Clarissa on May 21, 2003 21:30:20 GMT -5
Hi Clarissa, I am so sorry to hear about this diagnosis. How advanced is the disease? Did the docs give him any idea of prognosis or what sort of progression of symptoms he can expect? Reason I ask, I know someone who was diagnosed over 10 years ago who is basically still not suffering severe symptoms. I offer my wishes for wellness and prayers for healing. Hang in there. Carrie Thank you for your kind words. Trevor's disease is in the very earliest stage. They are currently still in the process of running all of their Dr. Mengele-type tests to confirm what they already know. A spinal tap is the next -- and hopefully -- last diagnostic test. It's also supposed to be the worst After that, he will be given periodic MRI's so that they can establish whether or not it is progressing. From what they've told us, there are two forms of MS: one is "progressive", meaning that the sufferer will experience symptoms & deterioration over time. The other form is "benign", in which the condition exists but does not advance for seemingly unknown reasons. This benign form is what your friend has, Carrie. Where a prognosis is concerned, the progressive form of the disease is a real crap-shoot. The doctors cannot tell him what he might expect because there is no "typical" progression of this disease. Naturally, we are hoping that his case will be the benign form. Thanks for caring. I don't think we can survive losing yet another child I don't know if I ever mentioned this here before or not, but Rachel & her baby were not the first children my husband and I have laid to rest. In 1985, Trevor's older brother committed suicide. Jason was only 15 years old. We didn't think anything worse could ever happen to this family. Boy, were we wrong . . . . Ironically, today is Jason's birthday. He should have turned 34 Clarissa
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 22, 2003 7:29:21 GMT -5
Thanks so much Carrie! Finally, some verbage that rather encompasses EXACTLY how I feel. Don't know why occasionally I struggle with this, except that really, it is part of my internal spiritual "cleansing process" - and I've realized that forgiveness is somthing I simply cannot offer Gary. To paraphrase some of your quote, Gary has expressed no remorse, has not asked for my forgiveness nor made any restitution. Therefore, forgiveness is not in order.
I think what John was trying to say is that forgiveness IS a moral and spiritual mandate (in his opinion), as he pointed out that lack of forgiveness affects all aspects of your life (which I don't necessarily agree with). He made it a point to say it affects your marriage, your relationship with your children, etc etc. and used the Christian bible to "back it as fact". I had a hard time rationalizing it as "fact" so I've been mulling over it ever since.
Appreciate your time and response. It meant a lot to me.
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 22, 2003 7:31:29 GMT -5
Sam if you guys are guna come out here you will have to learn the local lingo mate. Cheers You'll have to help me out Noel! I look forward to personal lessons from you Sammy
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Post by Carrie-Bill's sister on May 22, 2003 8:14:02 GMT -5
Hi Sam, I had my pastor at church read a chapter I wrote on forgiveness. It goes into great detail exploring the spectrum of forgiveness and the reasons people choose to or choose not to engage in forgiveness with the murderer, but includes basically the points I posted earlier. I was searching for an objective clergical perspective on my perspective- kind of wanted to get a sense of how bad I would offend the religious community and what I could do to broaden the perspectives presented. He loved the chapter and when my book is released (literally any day now) he wants one for the church library. I tell you this only to point out that Thank God, some clergy completely get it. I considered him a good a litmus test, because if anyone had personal circumstances that might bias them to believe forgiving murderers is a moral mandate, he does. He has a brother on death row for murder, and he still supported my contention that forgiveness is not an unconditional moral mandate and it is fine to leave the task up to the higher powers that be. The Bible can be used in alot of ways. There is a lot of wisdom in it if one uses it for purpose of boosting their own understanding of spiritual matters and to help inspire or bolster others. Some people get confused and use it instead to judge others. This is dangerous since different people can read the same passage and and hear a different messages. Like all good tools, the Bible can be subject to misuse. I suppose Bibles should come with a "surgeons general warning: May be hurtful if used to beat others" Enough on this. I don't usually venture this far into discussions on religious matters. I have respect for other people's spirituality and like to avoid offending or even taking the risk of offending. Take Care, Carrie Thanks so much Carrie! Finally, some verbage that rather encompasses EXACTLY how I feel. Don't know why occasionally I struggle with this, except that really, it is part of my internal spiritual "cleansing process" - and I've realized that forgiveness is somthing I simply cannot offer Gary. To paraphrase some of your quote, Gary has expressed no remorse, has not asked for my forgiveness nor made any restitution. Therefore, forgiveness is not in order. I think what John was trying to say is that forgiveness IS a moral and spiritual mandate (in his opinion), as he pointed out that lack of forgiveness affects all aspects of your life (which I don't necessarily agree with). He made it a point to say it affects your marriage, your relationship with your children, etc etc. and used the Christian bible to "back it as fact". I had a hard time rationalizing it as "fact" so I've been mulling over it ever since. Appreciate your time and response. It meant a lot to me.
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 22, 2003 8:26:18 GMT -5
thanks for your input - and I like that you put a member of the clergy to the "litmus" test. There's some validation for me in that...
G-d Bless! Sam
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Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on May 22, 2003 8:28:59 GMT -5
Thank you for your kind words. Trevor's disease is in the very earliest stage. They are currently still in the process of running all of their Dr. Mengele-type tests to confirm what they already know. A spinal tap is the next -- and hopefully -- last diagnostic test. It's also supposed to be the worst After that, he will be given periodic MRI's so that they can establish whether or not it is progressing. From what they've told us, there are two forms of MS: one is "progressive", meaning that the sufferer will experience symptoms & deterioration over time. The other form is "benign", in which the condition exists but does not advance for seemingly unknown reasons. This benign form is what your friend has, Carrie. Where a prognosis is concerned, the progressive form of the disease is a real crap-shoot. The doctors cannot tell him what he might expect because there is no "typical" progression of this disease. Naturally, we are hoping that his case will be the benign form. Thanks for caring. I don't think we can survive losing yet another child I don't know if I ever mentioned this here before or not, but Rachel & her baby were not the first children my husband and I have laid to rest. In 1985, Trevor's older brother committed suicide. Jason was only 15 years old. We didn't think anything worse could ever happen to this family. Boy, were we wrong . . . . Ironically, today is Jason's birthday. He should have turned 34 Clarissa Clarissa - your family is in thought and prayer today. You are indeed a strong person that has been put through many tests - I admire your ability to "keep on keeping on". I hope and pray Trevor's MS is benign - and even if it isn't, that you will still have many more years with him. And I thought I had problems!
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For Teofilo
Newbie
I lost My best friend to an unsolved murder.
Posts: 3
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Post by For Teofilo on May 26, 2003 15:14:49 GMT -5
Hi. I am new to this board but want to let you know like every one else that you are not alone. My own pitiful story now, I was "asked" for a divorce havent been able to find a job and was living with my sis until the landlord ssid oh you cant let her stay we have a policy now and subsiquently can't find a house. fine for me but I have 3 kids to. Then I just found out that my dearest friend was murdered 7 months ago and his dad could contact me bc it hurt to much which I completely understand but it hit me like a blow to the chest and right now I am finding it hard to see how anything else matters besides my kids. anyway about the "minister" God never promised an easy life and if he want to quote scripture fine but my fav is judge not lest ye be judged. Our relationship with God is personal and how we feel and what we do is between ourselves and our God. Tell him that Job also stood by God when he took everything from him was surely not dancing in the streets with his problems the bible is filled with how to undertand God and how it can be so hard to do. Tell him that since he is bringing your "problem" with God out in the open then he must be willing to share where he is lead astray. and if he claims he is not then you know that he is either the second coming or he is just a hypocrit that is trying to feel better about his position with God by finding faults with others. I have had many people die in my life but never murdered. And although I beleive in God I couldn't for the life of me say that at least he is in a better place. Anyother time I felt that it was a good saying now it just rings hollow. bc be that as it may right now I just dont care. I want terry back. and I know that wont happen but I am centered on me and how much he meant to me. Selfish hell yes, sinful probably but I am okay with God bc I need to work through it and no matter where I end up emotionally I dont think I can ever forgive who did this. But the great thing is, I dont have to bc I AM NOT GOD. Tell you r coworker that we are made in sin and although that is not a license to use it or an excuse, It is something that everyone needs to understand. He is no better than any of us and until he gets that sown he is not a good enough christian to be telling anyone how to live. Sorry for going off but murder is something nobody should go through in fact there is alot in there that nobody should go through, but since we do people need to understand that they will never understand. He may be able to see forgiveness is the death of his child but even God did not forgive those that killed his.
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