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Post by toniga on Apr 10, 2006 3:22:06 GMT -5
Thank you pumpkin for understanding me and giving me support.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 10, 2006 14:44:56 GMT -5
You know, I bet every single 1 of us on here has had to vent at times after being hurt and slipped up and used swear words. I've done it. Not on this board specifically, but in my own place, my car, etc. I don't think God holds a grudge for venting or being angry if say someone cuts us off in traffic and nearly causes us to wreck, or we're hurt by being a murder survivor and we're so upset we have to vent. The lady in question has taken a lot of grief in her life that's not been fair. All of us on here have had that to a degree. There's others who have sworn on the other boards, and this 1. It's up to each of us how we repent, or how we vent again, repent or not, whatever, depending on our belief systems. It's up to each person. I made the comment about using asterisks as that reminded me of how they beep people on TV and you can tell by their lips what word they said anyway! So to me those are kind of strange. The "deleted word" feature you don't always know what word was said, which I find less strange! Thanks for listening.
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Post by meme on Apr 11, 2006 21:17:27 GMT -5
Cursing is one thing, taking the Lord's name in vain is quiet another! _______________________________________________________________ Back to the topic, I find that our differences may lie in the understanding of the word "forgive". According to the Webster's dictionary: FORGIVE- cease to feel resentment against (an offender): pardon (one's enemies), to give up resentment of or claim to requital for (an insult), to grant relief from payment of (a debt), excuse. _______________________________________________ Give up claim of requittal means I would give up the prosecution and conviction of the murderer (in other words set them scott free). In order to grant relief from payment means I would agree to (again) no conviction. Or, relief from this "payment" or debt to society. Again, the murderer would not be held accountable. NADA! Not gonna happen. _______________________________________- If one holds no resentment, I can understand, after a while, holding resentment gets weary IF you loved that person to begin with. But to FORGIVE means NO CONVICTION, NO PUNISHMENT, NO PENALTY.................NO chance in my book.
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Post by toniga on Apr 12, 2006 20:42:39 GMT -5
meme the curse was not intenionally meant as a disrespect.although i myself don't believe in the same god i ll try to be more respectful of your belief in god and try to be mindful of the curse in the future,have a good day.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 13, 2006 5:55:22 GMT -5
Personally, I've never believed that forgiveness excuses any accountability of the person doing the offense. The perpetrator in our case did her time and we never did anything to lessen the sentence, get her out of it, etc. Personally, I believe in the definition of forgiveness given in the Bible more and that of a dictionary less. I believe God's law is above man's law in many cases, when it comes to issues like these. Just like I believe and KNOW that man's laws when it comes to how disabled people get their benefits cut or taken away completely when marrying are totally unfair compared to God's laws on marriage. I say this as I'm in this kind of bind with my fiance. I take the Biblical view on forgiveness over man's definitions. Just as with marriage. Thanks for listening.
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Post by meme on Apr 13, 2006 12:03:23 GMT -5
The bible is above man's law- absolutely. I also find many contradictions in the bible. So, it is for each of us to find what we feel is right. I know that murder has no honor, no integrity, and thus, is too far removed from God's law to understand, much less tolerate.
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Post by meme on Apr 13, 2006 12:05:11 GMT -5
Toniga, thank you for the post. I hope we can be friends.
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Post by toniga on Apr 13, 2006 14:51:39 GMT -5
Of course meme just because we have varyng view about some things in life doesn't mean we can't be friends.We are here on the forum for each other and that's what I want.I hope that made sense lol.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 16, 2006 9:52:23 GMT -5
I agree with both of you. We can agree to disagree and not get into making it personal. I'm proud that on this board people do that.
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lilbird
Old Hand
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Posts: 546
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Post by lilbird on Apr 16, 2006 11:23:12 GMT -5
wow! i didn't realize this thread was going in this direction. i stopped reading after the 2nd page cause the whole "forgiveness" issue is such a hot topic. no wonder there's tension in other threads. maybe i owe Snow an apology ;D You know i've come to realize that when we talk about such hot button issues that we tend to personalize it to our each own individual cases. We all share a common bond in that we have lost a loved one through murder. But we have all come to this bond in many different varying ways. we need to respect each other on that. You know, before this board, i never really considered what the family members of a murderer went through. Or if your loved one was killed by another loved one. and right now, i'm not even talking about the forgiveness issue, i'm just acknoweledging that my eyes have been opened to something that i really never gave thought to before. i realize you have so many more different levels and issues you must deal with that i don't even have to go through. Well, please "forgive" me for interrupting, carry on
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Post by toniga on Apr 16, 2006 21:23:32 GMT -5
Pumpkin you were actually an example for me when I took it personally.I saw how fair and balanced you try to be and that had an impact on me.I thought about how I need to understand where people are coming from not to just always react and take it personally.I mean we all have our reasons on this board for feeling and being who we are.
Lilibird I had to tell you that I am grateful for the acknowledgment to the struggles/challenges people in my and pumpkin's situation have/had to experience.I was really touched by you acknowledging it. There is so many levels and challenges that have begun to taper off in my case.Thanks.
Temporary personal differences aside I am really glad I didn't leave this board.I am glad I stayed until the storm subsides(although it might have been my own personal "storm").
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 23, 2006 7:44:56 GMT -5
Thanks, Lilbird! I'm glad that this thread taught you some stuff about what inter-family survivors go through. And I agree with you that in the fact that all our cases are different in some ways, and that shows in our reactions to things. Toniga, thanks. I have to admit, there's posts on here have made me have a fit! I vent to those in my life who are there for me and care (mainly my fiance) before I post back, if at all. Thanks again to both of you for your posts on this thread. ;D
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lilbird
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Post by lilbird on Apr 23, 2006 11:30:11 GMT -5
no, not this particular thread but this whole forum and the life stories from people such as yourself and toniga amd stacee and other's that i can't quite remember at this time.
Plus, i listen to a christian radion station and on sunday nights they have a teen hotline where teens can call in about their problems and they will help them through. a young man called in about his father who was in prison for killing a woman. before this i never even thought about the kids of these people and what they must go through. i was crying through the whole segment and even till this day that young man is still in my head.
and i just have to tell Toniga that i have such respect and awe for you. You had such a burden placed on you before you were even out of the womb. I think if you just keep moving forward that i see and feel good things will come your way in the future.
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Post by meme on Apr 23, 2006 11:36:08 GMT -5
lilbird, The hot topics are hot because we MVS are enraged with injustice. First, we suffer through a murder, THEN have to listen to people whine about forgiving these monsters??? THEN we have to put up with murder-friendly BS courtroom drama, where the MURDERER has all the rights? _________________________________________ What is even MORE disgusting is people who come up with excuses for the murderer... like the victim "made them do it". I want to b!tch-slap their teeth right down their throat!
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Post by toniga on Apr 24, 2006 0:12:04 GMT -5
Wow thanks.I hope so.This matters alot to me.I get stuck often.It is a burden sometimes being the child of someone who has murdered because it can be very conflicting.This forum has opened my eyes also.Lilibird and Pumpkin thanks.It helps heal a little when people at least understand.
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Post by denise on Apr 24, 2006 21:32:48 GMT -5
I have had people tell me i need to forgive jason for killing leah. i do not forgive him for that. he took away my sister in the spirit and my friend. it was the most devastating thing i ever have gone through. i loved her and it makes me angry to know what happened to her. for give him??? NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS!!! sorry aint going to happen..... not forgetable or forgivable and i hate when people tell me i need to forgive him. WRONG WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT. How would they deal if they were in my shoes.
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stacie
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Post by stacie on Apr 25, 2006 13:40:22 GMT -5
I would never say forgiveness is wrong. If someone is able to forgive another when a loved one has been murdered, I am happy for them. Who wouldn't want to release some feelings of anger and/or betrayal? Especially when they run as deep as most MVS do. If this was a "perfect" world, everyone would be able to forgive, and admittedly, there would be less pain felt. Unfortunately, as we all know here, sometimes the world is about as far from perfect as it could possibly be. In my case, my father will NEVER admit to what he has done. Even if he did, he has yet to ask (or want, for that matter) forgiveness for any of the vile, abusive acts he has committed. In fact, he seems to get great pleasure in blaming my mother for the beatings and pain that he unleashed on her. For example, when he punched my mom in the face, threw her on the floor and continually kicked her (which resulted in 2 broken ribs, a broken wrist and 6 stiches on her left eyelid) it was HER fault because she didn't have supper ready when he got home. I try to be a loving, and in most cases forgiving, person. In many cases something is forgiven by me the momemt it was done, whether the other person asks or not. I simply cannot include murder as one of those instances. It is not in me. Even with repentance, I do not think I could do it. I'm sure God would like it if I could. I'm even more sure than in his love for me, he understands my inability to do so.
Pumpkin's post concerning Matthew 6:14-15 led me to look up some more scripture. In doing this, I found this on the New Testament website:
There were laws governing the civil penalties for crimes within the theocracy of Israel. Many of our civil laws today are based on these laws to some degree. God does not require these to be strictly adhered to today, because the theocracy is no longer in existence, but they should be used to guide us in setting up our governments. When someone is convicted of murder, for instance, the murderer should be put to death swiftly in order to discourage others from this sin. “Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed. . . .” And “. . . blood defiles the land: and the land cannot be cleansed of the blood that is shed therein, but by the blood of him that shed it.” (Genesis 9:6, Numbers 35:33)
Again, I don't think anyone is wrong for forgiving. I just know that some of us just don't have the heart to do so when it has already been shattered by the vile acts of the murderer.
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Post by meme on Apr 25, 2006 14:06:38 GMT -5
Hi Denise, I'm with you all the way! I think that "forgiving" is appropiate only when a forgivable act is committed. Murder is unforgivable. Murder cannot be lessoned, murder cannot be undone, murder cannot be changed into anything other than what it already is. Murder is eliminating God's gift, murder is stealing something irreplacable, a life. Period. ______________________________________________________________________ It's the people who whine "you have to forgive" that scare me. If murder is "forgivable" to someone, ask them how they feel about their beloved being murdered. ____________________________________________________ 1 John 3:16 says it as plain as day (and elsewhere throughout the bible) "No murderer hath eternal life". In order to have eternal life, one must go to heaven. If one is not allowed in heaven, they obviously are not forgiven. So, the next time one of these goofballs tell you that you HAVE to forgive, recite 1 John 3:15. Stand up against these fools! The NERVE!!!
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 26, 2006 18:01:01 GMT -5
Stacie, I want to say your post touched me and THANK YOU! Thank you for accepting how I've chosen to handle the forgiveness issue. This means a lot to me. I think what your Dad did was truly disgusting. This domestic violence is pure evil. Your case is different than mine so I don't have the full understanding of all you've been through. I'll be honest, I can't even imagine how it must be for him to not have been held accountable, the pain this has caused you. It reminds me of the cases where the motives are evil things like insurance money, property, robbery, etc. The fact that you haven't just totally given up on humanity is amazing to me. I think you've done great to say the least. And that you can accept that others feel different on the forgiveness thing I admire also. Your post is 1 of the 1's that keeps me going. I know my views on the forgiveness thing aren't popular, but no matter what, I'm going to keep saying it, as I feel it has value, just as the other views all have their own values also. The more all of us are out there saying we're making it and we're sane, the more healing there will be. Others will know they're not alone. Thanks again and take care.
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Post by pumpkin12903 on Apr 26, 2006 18:10:45 GMT -5
Lilbird, I agree with you about Toniga. I'm glad you listen to that radio show. The families of the perpetrators do suffer. Thanks again for your posts on this thread.
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Post by purples on Sept 9, 2006 19:34:39 GMT -5
I know that i can't forgive my husband for murdering Michael! It makes me sick to think that people actually think they should forgive murderers. There is no excuse to take a life! As Jeff sits in prison he is writing poetry and actually thinking that god has locked him up because he is a precious jewell. OMFG CRAZY *deleted* Jeff ended a life that was a precious jewell!
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Post by angelbaby on Sept 22, 2006 23:35:52 GMT -5
i can not see my ever forgiving the moron that murdered my sister and then hid her body.if they got into a heated arguement and it happened and he called the police and told them what he did,then i might (big might) had forgave him.but instead he tries to say she left us and her kids.we are not stupid,we know what the lousy piece of s*** did.i will NEVER forgive that thing that was my sisters husband.he turned my family upside down....i know it sounds mean,but he will have to answer for what he has done,if not now,then he will have to answer to the lord.......
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Post by joanwakefield on Oct 5, 2006 23:42:50 GMT -5
I have been following the news coverage of the school shootings in Pennsylvania very closely because I used to live in the area and have some understanding of the Amish way of life. I have to say that there is no way in the world that I could be so forgiving. I hope the families of the murdered little girls will find peace and be able to go on with their lives and I hope the little boys in the class will not be too traumatized by the event. What a horrible experience for all of them.
My own experience pales by comparison.
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Post by Misty419 on Oct 6, 2006 14:58:47 GMT -5
People have told me over and over again that I need to forgive the man that killed my 12 year old son, That man just happens to be my brother, Tell me how the Hell do you forgive such an evil act, The fact is my sweet little boy is gone forever , there is no amount of time or sorry that can bring him back, There is nothing that he can say or do that will take the memory or pain away. I miss my son deeply, and it angers me that I have to go to a cemetary to visit my son, He will never drive a car, never get married or have children, my son is 12 forever how fair is that, how can anyone ask me to forgive what he did to my son? I cant forgive nor will I ever. He just did'nt take my sons life but put a awful painful mark on everyone that knew and loved my son, I'll tell you what you tell me how many sorry's it will take to bring my son back and that's the day I will forgive the man that murdered my son.
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Post by meme on Nov 8, 2006 22:40:24 GMT -5
Misty & Joan, Amen. There is no excuse for murder. That is the most vile, dispicable act that a human can commit. _____ One old woman told me all a murderer has to do is ask forgiveness then- POOF- they're forgiven. This misguided belief is exactly why cowardly evil perps murder, they think all they have to do is say 3 widdle words, "fogive me God"... after rape, sodomy, mutilation, burning alive, cutting up & torturing their murder victims. Nothing could be further from the truth. The evil the murderers put out will come back to them tenfold. _______ No one person has said anything about me "forging the murderer" to my face. If anyne ever did, I'd flat out ask how many beloved victims have THEY lost to murder?
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