stacie
Cadet
Regular
Posts: 188
|
Post by stacie on Jun 5, 2003 19:48:41 GMT -5
My aunt (my father's sister) visited me a couple days ago. I immediately knew something was wrong because every since Mom was murdered I haven't seen too awful much of her. (Although she admits that my father probably killed Mom, she thinks he should be forgiven) I sat on my couch with my heart beating so hard that I could feel it in my throat. She proceeded to inform me that my "father" has been diagnosed with lung cancer. I must admit that the first emotion I felt was happiness/revenge. Before I could feel too awful of anything else she told me that it was caught early, is not an agressive type and he would probably survive it. The depth of anger and rage that washed over me was equaled only by what I felt when he murdered her. He is already getting away with beating to death one of the most prescious thing in my life, but now it looks like he will beat cancer? Saying that it's not fair is a HUGE understatement. My aunt must have seen what I was feeling on my face, because she actually tried to convince me that it was wrong. How dare her!!! I then told her in no uncertain terms exactly how I felt. As far as forgiveness, last I knew someone has to admit guilt and WANT forgiveness. Not that I could ever forgive him, if by some miracle that happened. She interupted me to say that if I was a "good" Chritstian, I would be able to forgive. Of which I replied that I am a Christian, and even God requires you to ask for it and truly want it. She must have not been able to argue this point because she then steered away from that aspect. She proceeded to let me know that even if forgiveness was not an option, I absolutely should not react the way I am about his cancer. I asked her to come out of her dream world and look at it from my view point.
1) My "father" has never served one day in jail for what he did, nor does he seem to feel any remorse.
2) Even though he has cancer, he still has a very good chance for recovery. Mom has/had no such luxury.
3) My father has a lot of people that are going to help him in his fight survive cancer. (ie: doctors, friends and family) Mom was denied this when my father, who is at least 60 lbs heavier and six inches taller, chose to murder her when no one could possibly help her.
4) The treatments he will go through may be painful, but he will have medication to help him through it. Mom felt every punch, slap, kick and stomp that he unleashed on her. As if that wasn't brutal enough, he left her to bleed to death lying alone on a cold bloody floor. There was no one to hold her hand or tell her how very much we love her. When I think of the pain my beautiful mother went through, it tears me apart.
5) Dying from natural causes is NO substitute for justice. As long as he is alive Mom still has a chance at receiving justice, as small as it may be.
She started crying and said that she just can't stand the thought of her brother lying in a cold cemetary. Boy, did that do it!! Mom is in her grave not because of anything "natural", but due to a CHOICE my father made. I still rememver stand at Mom's grave when the funeral ended. It was a very cold and rainy day, and one thought kept running through my head. Mom was ALWAYS cold. It could be 100 degrees out and she would be sitting on the couch with a throw wrapped around her. We used to tease her about it all the time, as well as her fear of being in small places. It was now no longer funny. This monster had managed to put her in the two positions she never could stand. I wasn't the only one to realize this. When I finally got back in the car to leave the cemetary my daughter Sarah (who was 5 at the time) asked if she could leave her coat for Grandma so she wouldn't get cold. Every person in that car had tears running down their face, including the driver.
Despite what I told my aunt, she did not waiver on her request. As a last-ditch effort, she told me that if Mom was here she would forgive him. As much as it hurts to admit it, she may be right. As deeply as I love Mom, I never could understand how she was able to forgive him time and again. This is the ONLY thing I wish I could have changed about Mom. Although I know that I could never achieve this goal, I refuse to carry on the "tradition". I then walked my aunt to the door and asked her not to come back as long as she felt this way.
Later that night it crossed my mind that maybe the feelings that I have are extreme. For a spilt second I even wondered if they made me not so unlike my father. In the end it realy doesn't matter. Until the day that Mom sees some sort of justice I can't even think of forgiveness. Matter of fact, I don't think I ever could - no matter what happens. Is this so wrong???
-stacie
|
|
|
Post by Charlene on Jun 5, 2003 21:17:13 GMT -5
Stacie, you are not a monster for feeling this way. Even though you feel that you could probably not forgive your father even if he asked for it, the chance that you will be tested in that way is nearly non-existant, isn't it? Time to read the Forgiveness article from Dennis Prager at the top of this site. You are not wrong; your aunt is and your father is beyond wrong.
Charlene
|
|
|
Post by Clarissa on Jun 6, 2003 1:32:50 GMT -5
Where is this article you mention? I cannot seem to find it . . . . I'd like to read it. Thanks. Clarissa
|
|
|
Post by Janet-Beth's Mom on Jun 6, 2003 4:23:39 GMT -5
Here it is. I felt as if a weight were lifted from me after reading this the first time. It helped me put what I believe into words. It helped bring me a little bit of peace of mind in this one aspect of the things we are stuck learning to live with anyway. You are not a monster, Stacie--you just love & honor your Mom & know what is right & what is not, IMHO.
I hope this helps you as it did me.
Janet-Beth's Mom
The Sin of Forgiveness
by Dennis Prager Wall Street Journal, December 15, 1997
The bodies of the three teenage girls murdered by a fellow student at Heath High School in West Paducah, Ky., were not yet cold before the students of the Christian prayer group that was shot at announced, "We forgive you, Mike," referring to Michael Carneal, 14, the murderer.
This immediate and automatic forgiveness is not surprising. Over the past generation, the idea that a central message of Christianity is to forgive everyone who commits evil against anyone, no matter how great and cruel and whether or not the evildoer repents, has been adopted by much of Christendom.
The number of examples is almost as large as the number of heinous crimes. But one other recent example stands out. In August, the pastor at a Martha's Vineyard church service attended by the vacationing President Clinton announced that it was the the duty of all Christians to forgive Timothy McVeigh, the murderer of 168 Americans. "I invite you to look at a picture of Timothy McVeigh and then forgive him," the Rev. John Miller said in his sermon. "I have, and I ask you to do so."
The pastor acknowledged: "Considering what he did, that may be a formidable task. But it is the one that we as Christians are asked to do."
Though I am a Jew, I believe that a vibrant Christianity is essential if America's moral decline is to be reversed and that despite theological differences, there is indeed a Judeo-Christian value system that has served as the bedrock of American civilization. For these reasons I am appalled and frightened by this feel-good doctrine of automatic forgiveness.
This doctrine undermines the moral foundations of American civilization because it advances the amoral notion that no matter how much you hurt other people, millions of your fellow citizens will immediately forgive you. This doctrine destroys Christianity's central moral tenets about forgiveness - that forgiveness, even by God, is contingent on the sinner repenting, and that it can only be given to the sinner by the one against whom he sinned.
These tenets are unambiguously affirmed in Luke 17:3-4: "And if your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if seven times of the day he sins against you, and seven times of the day turns to you saying, I repent, you shall forgive him."
This flies in the face of what passes for Christianity these days - the declaration, often repeated, that "It is the Christian's duty to forgive just as Jesus forgave those who crucified him." Of course, Jesus asked God to forgive those who crucified him. But Jesus never asked God to forgive those who had crucified thousands of other innocent people - presumably because he recognized that no one has the moral right to forgive evil done to others.
You and I have no right, religiously or morally, to forgive Timothy McVeigh or Michael Carneal; only those they sinned against have that right - and those they murdered are dead and therefore cannot forgive them. (Indeed, that is why I believe that humans cannot forgive a murderer.) If we are automatically forgiven no matter what we do - even if we do not repent, why repent? In fact, if we forgive everybody for all the evil they do to anybody, God and his forgiveness are entirely unnecessary. Those who forgive all evil done to others have substituted themselves for God.
When confronted with such arguments, some callers to my radio show offered another defense: "The students were not forgiving Carneal for murdering the three students," these callers argued, "they were forgiving him for the pain he caused them." Let us summarize this argument: You murder my classmates, and the next day I announce that I forgive you for the pain you caused me! That such self-centered thinking masquerades as a religious ideal is a good example of the moral disarray in much of religious life.
Some people have a more sophisticated defense of the forgive-everyone-everything doctrine: Victims should be encouraged to forgive all evil done to them because doing so is psychologically healthy. It brings "closure." This, too, is selfishness masquerading as idealism: "Though you do not deserve to be forgiven, and though you may not even be sorry, I forgive you because I want to feel better."
The rise of the theology of automatic "forgiveness" is only one more sign of the decline of traditional religiosity and morality. As Yale Prof. David Gelernter, who was severely injured by the Unabomber, notes in his thoughtful recent book, "Drawing Life," the 1960's made making moral judgments the greatest sin. He points out that none of his pre-1975 dictionaries contains the word "judgmental." Today, judging evil is widely considered worse than doing evil.
Until West Paducah, I believed that Christians will lead America's moral renaissance. Though I still believe that - many Christians are repulsed by the demoralization and dumbing down of religion - the day those students, with the support of their school administration, hung out that sign I became less sanguine. If young Christians have inherited more values from the '60s culture than from their religion, where can we look for help?
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jun 6, 2003 13:40:12 GMT -5
Nope, it doesn't make you any kind of monster. Infact, I admire your restraint with the whole situation. Lord only knows what I would have done in that situation. Oh, nevermind, seems I was. That person is still drooling in the corner of the hospital. Only kidding Don't ever feel bad because someone else was that unfeeling toward you regardless of the situation. You were perfectly within your rights. Hugs, Linda
|
|
Noel
Sophomore
Regular
Posts: 72
|
Post by Noel on Jun 6, 2003 20:16:56 GMT -5
Hi Stacie, your no monster I will take over for you their, when I go to mass tonight I will say a few word to ask God to see if he can fix it up with the manager of the Karma Unit to reverse the get back to normal bit, and make it nice and slow and painfull just like they make the victims suffer, and then permanetly rehabilitate him by dispatching him to the big Judge, you like the rest of us owe scumbags nothing, but hate no more no less, and dont let anyone who has not walked in your shoes tell you any different, as I always tell myself "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turned out" and never ever, ever, let the scumbags win. You take care, and God Bless. Noel
|
|
stacie
Cadet
Regular
Posts: 188
|
Post by stacie on Jun 6, 2003 21:30:11 GMT -5
for your kind words of wisdom. Unfortunately I'm at a place where I really need them right now. I honestly don't know what I would do w/o the support I get from everyone here!
-stacie
|
|
BethMariansChild
Sophomore
Regular
May the Great Goddess bless you in whatever path you choose.
Posts: 63
|
Post by BethMariansChild on Jun 7, 2003 17:37:02 GMT -5
Stacie,
I also admire your restraint. Sometimes we have to let go of people who are just clueless about how they hurt us. It seems to me that your aunt is one of those people.
I have said so many times that the only way to get around these rational, justified feelings is *through* them. You have to allow yourself to feel the things that you honestly feel...take stock...deal with those feelings as they arise...and just keep on keeping on. There are no magic answers. There is only struggle and continued life for those of us fortunate enough to have it.
I cannot imagine how it must feel to have had your *father* kill your mother. In my case it was the stepmonster. I hated him *long* before he actually killed her.
You just keep on standing up for yourself. Your daughter needs to see that *someone* loved her grandmother enough not to coddle the man who killed her. I know you do. It is evident in every word you have written.
|
|
|
Post by Samantha - Urai's Daughter on Jun 7, 2003 20:57:40 GMT -5
No, you are definitely not a monster. I wrestled with a similar problem a few weeks ago when a "helpful" co-worker gave me the speech about forgiveness. Gosh, I admire your restraint. I personally would have lost my temper and done something I would have regretted later had someone in my family had enough testicular fortitude to say such a thing to me (if the circumstances were the same about losing our Moms). I'm sorry you are dealing with people who obviously feel that murderers (especially a DV murderer) need to be forgiven for taking a life. It will never cease to amaze me how *IMHO* utterly f-ing stupid (and no I don't believe ignorance applied here) and insensitive some people can be. OK, I've vented and feel MUCH better now. G-d Bless you Stacie, for keeping a stiff upper lip during a most trying situation.
|
|
|
Post by Karen-Jamie's Mom on Jun 8, 2003 13:23:23 GMT -5
No hon, feeling this way does not make you a monster. It's a perfectly normal way to react. Your feelings are more than justified. Your aunt's behaviour was, at best, insensitive. At worst, it was cruel and manipulative. It's really hard to understand why his family are pushing you so hard to forgive. If anyone is a monster, he is. Lord knows I've imagined (and wished for) all the tortures of hell for both of Jamie's killers. If you're a monster, then most of the rest of us are also.
((((((((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))))
|
|
|
Post by Carrie-Bill's sister on Jun 11, 2003 16:03:34 GMT -5
Stacie, Sorry I am so slow in responding. I haven't spent much time here for the past couple weeks (fiscal year end closing at work). You are NOT a monster. Your response showed honesty, compassion, and restraint. Your aunt may not like it, but your mother deserves your compassion far more than her brother "deserves" your forgiveness. He created a horrible emotional tug of war when he started abusing your mom, and killing her was the cruelest thing he could have done, not only to her, but to you. You know, when I started reading your post about him having cancer, I was hopeful that guy wanted to do some of that hard death bed work like facing who he is and what he's done. Trying to do something to muster up a little integrity before his last breath. If your aunt is the concerned Christian she claims to be, she should be focusing on her brother and educating him on what forgiveness and redemption means to him and what he needs to do. NOt what you need to do. You didn't kill anyone, he did. So why's she preaching to you about being a good a christian. Your father's redemption and forgiveness is not your burden, it is his. Why do people always think it is up to the survivors and not the perpetrators to shoulder this burden. I will never get it. You are a compassionate, loyal, loving daughter. The problem isn't you, my friend. By the way. My friend with the abusive husband is days away from divorce. Your emails to me about her situation helped her to clarify what she needed to do. because of your willingness to share, you may have saved two little girls from going through the hell you have been through. Thank you. Take care, carrie My aunt (my father's sister) visited me a couple days ago. I immediately knew something was wrong because every since Mom was murdered I haven't seen too awful much of her. (Although she admits that my father probably killed Mom, she thinks he should be forgiven) I sat on my couch with my heart beating so hard that I could feel it in my throat. She proceeded to inform me that my "father" has been diagnosed with lung cancer. I must admit that the first emotion I felt was happiness/revenge. Before I could feel too awful of anything else she told me that it was caught early, is not an agressive type and he would probably survive it. The depth of anger and rage that washed over me was equaled only by what I felt when he murdered her. He is already getting away with beating to death one of the most prescious thing in my life, but now it looks like he will beat cancer? Saying that it's not fair is a HUGE understatement. My aunt must have seen what I was feeling on my face, because she actually tried to convince me that it was wrong. How dare her!!! I then told her in no uncertain terms exactly how I felt. As far as forgiveness, last I knew someone has to admit guilt and WANT forgiveness. Not that I could ever forgive him, if by some miracle that happened. She interupted me to say that if I was a "good" Chritstian, I would be able to forgive. Of which I replied that I am a Christian, and even God requires you to ask for it and truly want it. She must have not been able to argue this point because she then steered away from that aspect. She proceeded to let me know that even if forgiveness was not an option, I absolutely should not react the way I am about his cancer. I asked her to come out of her dream world and look at it from my view point. 1) My "father" has never served one day in jail for what he did, nor does he seem to feel any remorse. 2) Even though he has cancer, he still has a very good chance for recovery. Mom has/had no such luxury. 3) My father has a lot of people that are going to help him in his fight survive cancer. (ie: doctors, friends and family) Mom was denied this when my father, who is at least 60 lbs heavier and six inches taller, chose to murder her when no one could possibly help her. 4) The treatments he will go through may be painful, but he will have medication to help him through it. Mom felt every punch, slap, kick and stomp that he unleashed on her. As if that wasn't brutal enough, he left her to bleed to death lying alone on a cold bloody floor. There was no one to hold her hand or tell her how very much we love her. When I think of the pain my beautiful mother went through, it tears me apart. 5) Dying from natural causes is NO substitute for justice. As long as he is alive Mom still has a chance at receiving justice, as small as it may be. She started crying and said that she just can't stand the thought of her brother lying in a cold cemetary. Boy, did that do it!! Mom is in her grave not because of anything "natural", but due to a CHOICE my father made. I still rememver stand at Mom's grave when the funeral ended. It was a very cold and rainy day, and one thought kept running through my head. Mom was ALWAYS cold. It could be 100 degrees out and she would be sitting on the couch with a throw wrapped around her. We used to tease her about it all the time, as well as her fear of being in small places. It was now no longer funny. This monster had managed to put her in the two positions she never could stand. I wasn't the only one to realize this. When I finally got back in the car to leave the cemetary my daughter Sarah (who was 5 at the time) asked if she could leave her coat for Grandma so she wouldn't get cold. Every person in that car had tears running down their face, including the driver. Despite what I told my aunt, she did not waiver on her request. As a last-ditch effort, she told me that if Mom was here she would forgive him. As much as it hurts to admit it, she may be right. As deeply as I love Mom, I never could understand how she was able to forgive him time and again. This is the ONLY thing I wish I could have changed about Mom. Although I know that I could never achieve this goal, I refuse to carry on the "tradition". I then walked my aunt to the door and asked her not to come back as long as she felt this way. Later that night it crossed my mind that maybe the feelings that I have are extreme. For a spilt second I even wondered if they made me not so unlike my father. In the end it realy doesn't matter. Until the day that Mom sees some sort of justice I can't even think of forgiveness. Matter of fact, I don't think I ever could - no matter what happens. Is this so wrong??? -stacie
|
|
stacie
Cadet
Regular
Posts: 188
|
Post by stacie on Jun 13, 2003 5:28:04 GMT -5
I am so happy your friend is finally able to break free from him and his abuse! I can only imagine the depth of courage, resolve and motherly love that it takes to do this. It took Mom 28 years to leave my father. In fact we buried her on what would have been their 30th wedding anniversary. Although Mom never lacked courage, her resolve to not expose us to the pain and evil that my father created overshadowed it time and again. Although your friend has achieved so much, there is still a long road ahead of her. Please tell her not to let her guard down. Nothing enrages an abuser more than losing the person that have unleashed their evil upon.
I also wanted to thank you. Knowing that my sharing Mom's story may prevented someone from the same fate ensures that she did not die in vain. I will keep you and your friend in my thoughts and prayers. Please let her know that if she ever needs someone to talk to, I'm here.
-stacie
|
|
Jeanne Dotts Brykalski
Guest
|
Post by Jeanne Dotts Brykalski on Jun 15, 2003 10:11:12 GMT -5
is a close second. CHRISTIAN< MY ASS.......... What about do unto others as you would have them do unto you? What about Judge not lest ye be judged? What about love thy neighbor as thyself? what about THOU SHALL NOT KILL? ?? If she persists in the inqusition, remind her that Jesus did not forgive the Romans for his murder, he asked GOD to do that.... (father forgive them for they know not what they do). Also the Lord's Prayer says "HELP" us to forgive...... not make us. This is a very sore point of contention for me. I am personally so sick of people telling me that I have to forgive the monsters who murdered my parents. WHO ARE THEY TO JUDGE ME??? My parents were wonderful people and had a strong faith in God, but I can promise you this, they would never forgive the monsters who murdered them. Not as much for the atrocity they willfully and deliberately committed, but because of the pain and suffering murdering them has caused my husband and I. Just an opinion, but stay away from this aunt, and when she is around, tell her you will NOT discuss your father. And then send her to this board to get a clue. Heats and Hugs, Jeanne
|
|
|
Post by Snowleopard on Jun 17, 2003 3:36:18 GMT -5
I do not think you are wrong.
I compliment you on your restraint. One's thoughts are their own though I do caution to be aware of them, to be cautious of how they might affect you and your life. The key word is "you" however, and not how another believes they should be. I believe you are doing such, however, in not forcing your thoughts to see a world that you don't believe in (conflict).
"Monsters" occur when thoughts translate into action, but this is not an issue of actions, but thoughts on your part.
How one thinks of and views those who have hurt us is their own concern. There are certainly those in my past, between crooks and betrayers, who I would never want to see again but I do not have it in me to wish Nemeian action on them. That however, is just me. It is just me for such is the own concern and not that of another.
Your house, your life, your thoughts: the others should respect such and keep their distance.
|
|